Canada Defence Force

[John Fedup]

Hi John, yes mostly smoke and mirrors. This plan will probably won't survive by the next election call. Junior can't balance a budget (remember his campaign comment " the budget will balance itself") and now he plans to add billions to defence. Bottom line, show me the money! Second line up from the bottom, will opposition parties be on board, not bloody likely, this Canada after all.

 

[vldbzh]

"...remember his campaign comment " the budget will balance itself"..." - interesting things are happening in Canada
Btw, here, in Australia, that document was downloaded for ~1 min, maybe the government site was too busy that time...

 

[John Fedup]

Yes, my first attempt was when it was first put up. A later attempt took about a minute as well. Junior probably ordered a speed reduction on the site for this first few hours knowing the truly interested and his critics would be there at the start.

 

[John Fedup]

Yet another article on Canada's plan to increase defence spending. Utter bovine fecal matter as the last sentence in the article confirms by using the word "soon" in reference to Canada's fighter replacement. I won't bother posting the link about it taking three years from now to fund the Canadian army for small arms replacement.

Canada Pledges to Increase Defense Spending

 

[USAF77]

You'll never see most NATO countries reach 2% of their GNP spent towards defense. The exceptions will be England and France which will stay right around 2% and probably only because they have such large investments in defense related Industry. Germany will never spend 2%.

Turkey?? So much is given somehow to Turkey its hard to tell what they are spending and what they aren't. Besides they will continue to be a most unreliable partner in NATO.

The reason for this is two fold. Fist off they have become so reliant on the American tax payer paying for their defense, as has the American taxpayer. Secondly they will continue to have socialist Govt.'s that consider defense secondary to any and all social programs. Even the ones with fairly robust economies like Germany, the Scandinavian countries...ect Its "bread before bullets" for them and now made even worse by their reckless immigration policy's.

Canada's the same, only they also have the excuse of being far removed physically. They all hover around 1% of GNP and I dont expect much increase. When America's pressures for so long to no effect what does that tell you?

In Asia the only ones coming close to pulling their weight are the Aussie's and the SK's. The SK's cause they have to. The Aussie's are at 2% and the SK's are at 2.6%. Japan and NZ are at 1% or lower.

 

[John Fedup]

I think Japan and NZ will do more for obvious reasons. Don't forget Singapore, they don't shortchange defence.

Concerning Canada, geography is no excuse for our pi$$poor defence expenditures. We have the longest coastline in the world and have a navy that realistically is now a coastal force due to our AOR situation. Blue water activities are only possible when our allies accompany our frigates. Canada no no longer offer reliable icebreaking capabilities due to the limited fleet of ancient heavy icebreakers. HADR capabilities are pretty much non-existent even for Canadian coastal areas. The same applies to SAR. The RCAF is in better shape relative to the other two branches of our military ( new CH-147 Chinooks, C-130Js and C-177s) but new fighters are years away (if ever).

 

[t68]

You'll never see most NATO countries reach 2% of their GNP spent towards defense. The exceptions will be England and France which will stay right around 2% and probably only because they have such large investments in defense related Industry. Germany will never spend 2%.

Turkey?? So much is given somehow to Turkey its hard to tell what they are spending and what they aren't. Besides they will continue to be a most unreliable partner in NATO.

The reason for this is two fold. Fist off they have become so reliant on the American tax payer paying for their defense, as has the American taxpayer. Secondly they will continue to have socialist Govt.'s that consider defense secondary to any and all social programs. Even the ones with fairly robust economies like Germany, the Scandinavian countries...ect Its "bread before bullets" for them and now made even worse by their reckless immigration policy's.

Canada's the same, only they also have the excuse of being far removed physically. They all hover around 1% of GNP and I dont expect much increase. When America's pressures for so long to no effect what does that tell you?

In Asia the only ones coming close to pulling their weight are the Aussie's and the SK's. The SK's cause they have to. The Aussie's are at 2% and the SK's are at 2.6%. Japan and NZ are at 1% or lower.

I personally don't think people should get too hung up on percentage of GDP, for instance 1% of both NZ and JPN is vastly different to each other and there stratgic situation and commitments has a bearing on defence capabilty, but also in saying that there are country that have means of doing more than they currently are. Defence spending is influence by the leaders of the time after all it was not that long ago we in Australia was down closer to 1% whist dueing the coldest it would hover at around 2-2.5%

 

[ngatimozart]

Looks like Canada may have another stunningly brilliant defence deal under way and very cheap at half the price.

Germany looking to sell costly, rarely used drone to Canada

 

[John Fedup]

Interesting, haven't paid much attention to planned drone acquisitions lately. I thought medium altitude drones like Reapers or perhaps Avengers were the direction we are on. It would seem significant upgrading would be required for this German cast off. I vaguely recall the USAF wanting to ditch their block 30 Global Hawks will the arrival of block 40 versions. Perhaps a few of these are under consideration and the German unit would be for parts. A bargain give away used US GHs is reminiscent of the 9 VH-71s for 164 million. Maybe it will turn out to be brilliant. Tritons might be a better investment as we are unlikely to get P-8s.

 

[John Fedup]

Apparently DND is not the interested Canadian department, it is Transport Canada. Can't see this happening unless the Germans are willing to literally give it away as it seems an additional large investment will be needed to get it operational which would put pressure on Transport Canada's already limited budget.

Transport Canada looking at used German drone to patrol Arctic | CBC News

 

[John Fedup]

Given recent news about cyber attacks, perhaps cyber defence expenditures should be included in the 2% GDP if they aren’t already. See the cyber attacks thread for some recent links on hacking activity.

Rethink 2%: NATO ‘Defense Spending’ Should Favor Cyber

 

[t68]

Given recent news about cyber attacks, perhaps cyber defence expenditures should be included in the 2% GDP if they aren’t already. See the cyber attacks thread for some recent links on hacking activity.

Rethink 2%: NATO ‘Defense Spending’ Should Favor Cyber

In the end that takes money from hardware or manpower, I don't believe cyber should just be defined to defence its a whole of government problem.

 

[John Fedup]

Another NATO analysis on defence spending. Canada has seen a decline despite adding in other government expenditures which inflate our defence spending. As usual, hardly a ripple of notice from citizens.

NATO Edges Towards Trump's Spending Demands, Germany Lags

https://nationalpost.com/news/world...e-he-said-so-but-canadas-share-keeps-dropping

 

[John Fedup]

Just another article reinforcing how badly Canada does at national defence. Junior may not survive the next election but I have no doubt that the current Conservative leadership will only offer minimal improvement should they win in October.

Once again, the federal budget turns a blind eye to Canada’s military needs

 

[StingrayOZ]

Just another article reinforcing how badly Canada does at national defence. Junior may not survive the next election but I have no doubt that the current Conservative leadership will only offer minimal improvement should they win in October.

Once again, the federal budget turns a blind eye to Canada’s military needs

Increasing defence spending isn't as easy as some believe it is, and gaining tangible capability (or keeping current capability) without strong planning and sufficient commitment is also not easy. The natural state is for things to atrophy away. To increase capability is actually very difficult and takes years to turn around a decline to build upwards.

 

[vonnoobie]

If Canada truly wants to turn things around then they need a bipartisan approach with long term planning. At this stage jumping the budget to 2% wouldn't accomplish anything but have excess money sitting in the bank or having them waste it on poor rushed decisions. There needs to be a serious in depth discussion on what they want the Canadian forces to be able to accomplish both as part of a coalition and independently. Playing the long game is the only way to fix the military with out wasting vital funds or putting said waste in a position for some future politician to use as an excuse for cutting the budget again.

Decide what they want, What they are willing to spend then speak to your allies and friends to get advice and assistance on how best to get there.

 

[John Fedup]

Pollies working across party lines to formulate a decent long term defence plan together with our electorate......we are talking about Canada. NFW that will ever happen here and we have a 60 year track record to prove this pathetic fact.

 

[ngatimozart]

@Novascotiaboy I've changed the thread title to broaden the scope of the thread, rather than starting a new thread. Hope that you don't mind.

I've noticed a common pattern / thread emerging from the Canuck posters on the RCN and RCAF threads illustrating what I perceive to be their beliefs that the Province of Quebec obtains unfair advantages from the federal govt, especially the current one. I am aware that Quebec was settled by French colonists and eventually conquered by the British, however the French being French remained stubborn, much like the Poms, and there is a size portion of the Quebecoise who want independence from Canada. Therefore, what would be the consequences for both Canada and Quebec, if Quebec were to secede from Canada? Are there a legal mechanisms available for it to do so?

 

[Todjaeger]

@Novascotiaboy I've changed the thread title to broaden the scope of the thread, rather than starting a new thread. Hope that you don't mind.

I've noticed a common pattern / thread emerging from the Canuck posters on the RCN and RCAF threads illustrating what I perceive to be their beliefs that the Province of Quebec obtains unfair advantages from the federal govt, especially the current one. I am aware that Quebec was settled by French colonists and eventually conquered by the British, however the French being French remained stubborn, much like the Poms, and there is a size portion of the Quebecoise who want independence from Canada. Therefore, what would be the consequences for both Canada and Quebec, if Quebec were to secede from Canada? Are there a legal mechanisms available for it to do so?

I believe that there has been a legal mechanism which was established to permit the province of Quebec to secede. As to what the consequences would be... That is an extremely hard question to answer IMO since such an event would impact not just Canada (or what had been Canada) but other countries, the US especially.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Ngati I have no issues with your changes.

As to your question regarding seperation I say bring it on. But I am historically tainted as my German ancestors were brought to Nova Scotia to counter the french and helped the English expell the Acadian French from Nova Scotia and the other three Maritime provinces. Unfortunately over time they came back and makeup a small minority in certain areas of the province. But onto your question.

At 37 million of a total population of Canada, Quebec makes up slightly more than a quarter of that at about 10 million. Most of the population is centered in Montreal and in Quebec City but predominantly along the shores of the St Lawrence River.

If they want to go let them pay up their share of the federal debt first. The last time there was a referendum the F18s at Bagotville were flown out of the province.

I think if they try to seperate the Cree indians who occupy the majority of the northern areas of the province will let the french know who really control the province.

From a purely military perspective there are two major installations with Army in Valcartier, Quebec City, and Air Force at Bagotville. The army also has facilities in St Hubert outside Montreal and the recruit school is in St Jean. There is no navy facilities in the province besides reserve units with no vessels besides RHIBs.

The Canadian capital, Ottawa, is on the Ontario side of the Ottawa River opposite Gatineau Quebec. An Army base is located north of Ottawa in Petawawa and JTF2 is just outside the Capital in Dwyer Hill.

I personnally dont think that seperation has the same interest as it did years ago. The fire of political speech isnt there anymore. Its rarely mentioned in media if at all.

In the RCN there is at least one french speaking frigate, HMCS Ville Du Quebec.

The costs to leave would be high. Business would suffer. Large numbers of corporate head offices left Montreal the last time seperation was discussed as did anglophones who had had enough.

Right now there is a more likely situation of oil rich Alberta deciding that they have had enough of the pollies screwing up their life blood. The Alberta bitumen resources are huge, comparable to Saudi numbers, but because its landlocked its value is low. NIMBYS and eco do gooders have crushed attempts to build pipelines and this is another area where our illustrious leader has really dropped the ball.

For all of those who participate or just lurk on DT unless you live in Canada you could never understand the reality of how our government deals with military procurement. Its the biggest farce.

Thanks for letting me rant Ngati.