Canada Defence Force

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
There's so much disinfo now on Grip vs F-35, but we can stick to the general non-contested stuff.

Grippy is by all definitions a light fighter. Fully loaded and fueled it can be carried by an F-15, and kinematically it is half of an F-18, using the same engine but only 1.

Is that something Canada needs?
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
No matter what Canada decides there will be armchair experts who will decry the decision, mostly because their personal preference was not chosen. If Canada wants to procure an alternative to F-35s, resulting in a mixed fleet, what are their realistic non-US choices? Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen with maybe Golden Eagle? All of these will have advantages and disadvantages. But ultimately the choice is Canada's to make.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Canada reached an agreement with Brussels to join EU's "SAFE" procurement instrument, as reported by the European Commission.

I saw that a Canadian MP rather optimistically suggested Canada could use the loans for expensive defence purchases. In reality, Canada is paying for the privilege of Canadian firms having a better chance of winning contracts for EU states who use the loans.

Do Canadian MPs understand this, or will there be political backlash when it's made clearer than Canada is gambling that it will come out a net winner, when in reality the payments to the EU could result in no extra contracts for Canadian companies?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I saw that a Canadian MP rather optimistically suggested Canada could use the loans for expensive defence purchases. In reality, Canada is paying for the privilege of Canadian firms having a better chance of winning contracts for EU states who use the loans.

Do Canadian MPs understand this, or will there be political backlash when it's made clearer than Canada is gambling that it will come out a net winner, when in reality the payments to the EU could result in no extra contracts for Canadian companies?
Any defence news that excludes the US will face little political blowback, especially the electorate which is defence ignorant for the most part.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I saw that a Canadian MP rather optimistically suggested Canada could use the loans for expensive defence purchases. In reality, Canada is paying for the privilege of Canadian firms having a better chance of winning contracts for EU states who use the loans.

Do Canadian MPs understand this, or will there be political backlash when it's made clearer than Canada is gambling that it will come out a net winner, when in reality the payments to the EU could result in no extra contracts for Canadian companies?
I don't know the details but I would be very surprised if this is how it works.

Another well known EU program was Horizon 2020, for Research and Development. Norway, a non-EU country, participated and paid billions into the program. However, in return, Norwegian companies could apply for project support (grants) from the program, Norwegian companies and research institutions were quite successful and the grants paid to Norwegian companies was roughly equal to the amount paid into the program by the Norwegian government. Whether this was by design or "by coincidence" I do not know. But I think Canadian companies, that are very competitive, will see a huge benefit in participating in SAFE -- I don't think providing the same amount of money directly to the Canadian companies will have the same impact since access to this program gives access to EU in a completely different manner. I think this is win-win for both EU and Canada. A pity the UK decided they could not join.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
I don't know the details but I would be very surprised if this is how it works.
That is precisely how it works. The SAFE fund loans are reserved for EU member states. However, the countries have a degree of choice as to where to spend the money. If they want to use international suppliers, they can, but the default situation is that manufacture in non-EU members is limited to 35% of the "weapon" cost (enter confusion as to whether that's just a missile or also a delivery system).

Canada is paying so that the limit can be raised for Canadian products. It doesn't guarantee Canada contracts, although, as I said, if it's only paying 10 million euros it's worthwhile taking part.

Norwegian companies and research institutions were quite successful and the grants paid to Norwegian companies was roughly equal to the amount paid into the program by the Norwegian government
That would have been a coincidence.

As I've said, SAFE isn't handing out grants, it's a loan-scheme for EU member states.

A pity the UK decided they could not join.
No offence, mate, but it wasn't an issue of the UK deciding we "couldn't" join and more that we objected to the EU trying to use us as a giant ATM. We're not paying £billions of taxpayers' money just to make it easier for UK companies to bid for contracts - not least because we could easily spend the money on our own armed forces and get something out of it.

The fact Canada allegedly only has to pay 10 million euros indicates the EU was taking the piss with its demands of us.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
I saw that a Canadian MP rather optimistically suggested Canada could use the loans for expensive defence purchases. In reality, Canada is paying for the privilege of Canadian firms having a better chance of winning contracts for EU states who use the loans.

Do Canadian MPs understand this, or will there be political backlash when it's made clearer than Canada is gambling that it will come out a net winner, when in reality the payments to the EU could result in no extra contracts for Canadian companies?
All major system suppliers to Europe (USA, Israel, South Korea) are struggling to cope with the demand.
None bothered to make any special public arrangements regarding SAFE.
Canada may be fighting a fight that doesn't exist.

But also, Canada doesn't manufacture complete systems as a prime contractor, so there may be something to it.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
The Government of Canada has requested to buy up to seven hundred fifty (750) GBU-39 practice bombs inert with fuzes; up to one hundred (100) GBU-39 Guided Test Vehicles (GTVs); up to one hundred (100) MK-82 inert filled bombs; up to two hundred twenty (220) 2,000-lb BLU-117 General Purpose (GP) bombs; up to one hundred forty-six (146) I-2000 penetrator warheads; up to three thousand four hundred fourteen (3,414) BLU-111 500-lb GP bombs; up to three thousand one hundred eight (3,108) GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb Increment I (SDB-I) bombs; up to five thousand three hundred thirty-two (5,352) KMU-572 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) guidance sets; up to three hundred ninety-six (396) KMU-556 JDAM guidance sets; up to one hundred forty (140) KMU-557 JDAM guidance sets; up to two thousand four (2,004) GBU-53 SDBs – Increment II (SDB-II); and up to one hundred (100) GBU-53 SDB-II GTVs.

The estimated total cost is $2.68 billion. Took them long enough...

Link
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
The Government of Canada has requested to buy up to seven hundred fifty (750) GBU-39 practice bombs inert with fuzes; up to one hundred (100) GBU-39 Guided Test Vehicles (GTVs); up to one hundred (100) MK-82 inert filled bombs; up to two hundred twenty (220) 2,000-lb BLU-117 General Purpose (GP) bombs; up to one hundred forty-six (146) I-2000 penetrator warheads; up to three thousand four hundred fourteen (3,414) BLU-111 500-lb GP bombs; up to three thousand one hundred eight (3,108) GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb Increment I (SDB-I) bombs; up to five thousand three hundred thirty-two (5,352) KMU-572 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) guidance sets; up to three hundred ninety-six (396) KMU-556 JDAM guidance sets; up to one hundred forty (140) KMU-557 JDAM guidance sets; up to two thousand four (2,004) GBU-53 SDBs – Increment II (SDB-II); and up to one hundred (100) GBU-53 SDB-II GTVs.

The estimated total cost is $2.68 billion. Took them long enough...

Link
A couple thousand JDAM and SDB per combat squadron is a good baseline for western armed force. Cheap, scalable, and easily and rapidly transferable between allies.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Wait does it mean there's no worry about buying American anymore? Because there are non-American alternatives.
There will always be a need for American military kit due to cost and availability but whenever possible, alternative sources will get serious consideration. I expect Germany and South Korea will get substantial business for equipping the Canadian army and one of them will get a sub order. Some more F-35s are likely to be ordered but after that Canada’s 6th Gen fighters won’t be sourced from the US.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
There will always be a need for American military kit due to cost and availability but whenever possible, alternative sources will get serious consideration. I expect Germany and South Korea will get substantial business for equipping the Canadian army and one of them will get a sub order. Some more F-35s are likely to be ordered but after that Canada’s 6th Gen fighters won’t be sourced from the US.
If Canada wants a non-US'ian 6th gen the time to join a program is yesterday.
 
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