Can Malaysia Hold It's own - Political and Military views welcome

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gf0012-aust

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But the same conscripts may be less reliable if asked to lay down their lives for some dubious ideals they do not share.

US conscripts in Vietnam War is one example, Argentine conscripts in Falklands War is another. In both cases, most of the conscripts didn't want to be there.
I think you make some dangerous assumptions about conscripts here. There are just as many counter examples of conscripts outfighting professional soldiers.

Perhaps the issue is one that also needs to look at the effect of institutional values instilled at training.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
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I think you make some dangerous assumptions about conscripts here. There are just as many counter examples of conscripts outfighting professional soldiers.
Please read what I said before and try not to take what I said out of context.

Did I say conscripts won't outfight professional soldiers?

No, I didn't.

In fact, I had been quoting the Israeli example of how well conscripts and reservists fought even when thrown suddenly into battle. Please read.

What I am saying is that if you yank a conscript/reservist out of civi life and and send him on some expedition for a faraway cause he does not share, he would not be as motivated as a professional soldier.

Though there will always be exceptions.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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Please read what I said before and try not to take what I said out of context.

Did I say conscripts won't outfight professional soldiers?

No, I didn't.

In fact, I had been quoting the Israeli example of how well conscripts and reservists fought even when thrown suddenly into battle. Please read..

Lose the attitiude :lul I made an observation

What I am saying is that if you yank a conscript/reservist out of civi life and and send him on some expedition for a faraway cause he does not share, he would not be as motivated as a professional soldier.

Though there will always be exceptions.
yes, and I understand that. That issue still gets down to one of institiutional training and values. Approp training will identify those whop are less motivated and may result in those operators being assigned to non combatant roles (eg). There are a legion of examples in western militaries where even professional soldiers had a fundamental idealogical disconnect with the area of ops they were going to be assigned to etc..... Its not just an issue of volunteers having a disconnect.
 

paskal

New Member
The trouble is the perception of the MAF in terms of Materiel, modernity in other words. I believe in reply to your interesting question put forward, the view of the MAF as a modern, proffessional army is not going to change. This could be down to several factors;

1. Lack of Modern Artillery - especially 155mm and 105 mm. Further purchases of 155mm pieces should be welcome, but the entire inventory should be replaced.

2. Lack of Modern Anti Tank capabilities - Russian rockets is not enough. A small local defence industry should bolster manufacture of arms, but this at best is at an intermediate stage.

3. Understated quality of modern armour - 48 PT 91 Twardy tanks is not going to convince most defence experts.

4. Lack of AWACS and Air Superiority fighters - 40plus fighters may not appear to be enough.

5. Lack of a convincing fleet air arm of the RMN

6. Upgradation of the RMN is a welcome addition, with 2 Scorpene Subs, 20 plus Corvettes and 2 more frigates on order.

So, I would suggest the problem view is the perception of weaponry used, or rather in this case, not purchased or employed.

Otherwise, the MAF is a very proffessional armed force in terms of quality. The basic training, the jungle warfare schools, the staff services colleges,the air and naval colleges, the commando training, the intelligence gathering, the order of battle, the structure, everything is in place to show that this is an all out volunteer, proffessional army in every respect.

Another thing about the MAF is the experience. The first, second and third generation of Officers, NCOs and Soldiers are now a hardcore of very experienced veterans. This is the result of combat acquired in the war, in the insurgency, in the confrontation and in peacekeeping. The experience acquired is second to none.

Borneo is not a geographic problem for the MAF, the question is the division and logistic supply of assets. In Borneo, an air arm is lacking, but considering this is a major area, the proposed construction of further bases in Semporna and maybe Labuan is welcome.

Also is the paramilitary arm of the Malaysian State. 20 plus Battalions of the General Operations Force are active and these can be raised in number, to bolster any local strikes, especially in Borneo. Added to the current makeup of Combat Battalions in the MAF, and this number is already in excess of 50 Combat ready Battalions of Military and Paramilitary forces.

So the proffessionalism of the MAF is not a question. Both the Army and Police GOF attend the same colleges and courses. School leaving volunteers are never lacking in number, and places like the RMC, will continue to produce a cadre of Officers required for the country.

Would it not be fair to say that arms, weaponry and equipment is the main problem here?

Still I believe, a the basic infantry soldier of the MAF can kill with a rifle, no matter how old the weapon is. And with a history of long protracted conflicts, and much of the country still covered by dense forests, victories or defeats are decided and executed by the very best strategies.
i totally agree wit you man:)
ill be honest malaysia is totally outnumbered by singapore and thailand in ground and air force cappibilities:(
just a reminder malasyia has 54+ while singapore has 130+
but if you see properly singaopre aircraft have too many old ones for example f-5 and a-4 super skyhawk that all will be replaced by the f-15.
by that malaysia will juz get an advantage over singapore.
singapore has arround 40+ skyhawks and 32+ f-5 that will all be replaced by the new f-15....
i think ones that happen Singapore ang malaysia will be quite equal wit malaysia air force.
just a reminder malaysia is planning to buy around 74+ helicopter with csar cappibilities including for attacking:D
so to me malaysia has no chance of conquering neighbouring states like indonesia thailand or even singapore but they too has no chance of invading
malaysia:rolleyes:
the army that i think that may have a chance to inflict the mst damage is the supperior australlian army:cool:
 

paskal

New Member
I am quoting AGRA form the other thread:



And that is at least the third time I heard compliment abt SAF from other parties in a forum. once from another OZ soldier who has trained with many regional armies and the other from Taiwanese who have seen our soldiers in training in ROC.

One reason is becos SAF soldier is pretty well equip as compare to many armies in SEA, 2ndly SAF is pretty professional in term of training for conventional warfare.

Whereas many armies in the region for example like MY, Indon amd PH etc are only geared toward small scale COIN ops, the reasons are/were:

1) there are/were insurgency activities in their country,

2) lack of budget to equip the armies for combined arms operations as well the training require for large scale combined arms Bde/Div level exe.

Whereas SAF is from the very start geared toward large scale conventional warfare, we formed our first combined arms div since the 80s, IIRC 1 light infantry Bde, 1 airmobile Guard Bde and 1 light armoured Bde plus all the support units like arty , signal. engineers , recon etc and since then we have annually at least have 1 large scale combined arms exe in ROC, this is something we dun see in other armies in SEA.

Later the Guards Bdes were pulled out to form our first RDF Div specialise in air assualt and amphi ops, and the other 3 Combined Div were restructured into 2 light infantry Bde and 1 light armoured Bde.

Even up to now for example MAF has just formed their very first combined arms Div with new tanks just been delivered, training for large scale Bde/Div level exe is I believe yet to start, which means doctrine for large scale combined arms ops yet to be established.

Thailand on the other hand, is very much better with their regular Cobra Gold exe with US and SAF, their combined arms doctrine should be well established.

Whereas SAF has done that since 2 decades ago, and now we are going toward NCW SAF, so far based on reports:

1) a few large scale NCW evaluation exe have beed conducted in Australia and US which involved not the army but the airforce as well which are all connected in the same network.The navy will be next to be connected, therefore our 3G SAF is more like a combined services outfit then a combined arms outfit that was established abt 2 decades ago.

2) Evaluation has been completed and now is the implemetation stage, 3 Div will be our very first digitised Div as reported, all commanders from platoon level upward will be connected to the network with infantry with their portable rugged PDA and armoured units with their BMS in their vehicle.

This I believe that I will not see it in other armies in SEA for at least another 1~2 decades from now becos they are mainly have a pretty small defence budget and lack of established arms industry to support such upgrades on their own.

So, I believe that SAF will maintain it's technological edge over all armies in the regional for the forseeable future.

Here the latest on our 3G army:

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publications/cyberpioneer/news/2007/October/10oct07_news.html
you should now that agra is defending your country.
malaysia has more experience soldiers and more professional then singapore in jungle warfare, while singapore is better tahn malaysia in urban warfare.
malasyia trains around 80 pcnt of the time in the jungle while singapore mostly train in uban warfare:p:
you should think properly before you make you statement!
 

Transient

Member
If only every Malaysian soldier had the mental capacity of Paskal. I'm sure SAF would be able to save a lot of money by reducing its capabilities. ;)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If this thread does not change direction from "my d!ck is bigger and better than your d!ck" it will get closed.

Keep the nationalism to PM.s

Any future responses that detract will be deleted automatically.
 

gary1910

New Member
Terrain, I believe is one cruel master for "force multipliers". For example, a single platoon of soldiers with very advanced equipment, having to run patrols over hilly and difficult terrain, need to have the know how in survival skills. So a Lieutenant armed with a communications set, pdas, and so on, would have less time preoccupying about his gear, and be more concerned with dividing up his sections to forage for food and water. So, in effect, that platoon is no longer a viable military unit, the patrol is meaningless and every effort is expended trying to master the geography and dwindling rations, rather than track, locate and engage a elusive enemy. What more to say, a platoon of townboys fighting in dense jungle, secondary forests or even plantations???

A force multiplier in technology does not always deliver the right results. Environment, Survival conditions, understanding the lay of the land remains the basic military skills for any army. RMA as a fluid concept can be selectively shifted and used in this area, but faced with tenacious conditions, it can also be inhibited.

The MAF is changing but it is doing so at a snail's space. Consider this, today's flavour of the month is tomorrow's outdated tool. The basic tactics of Military warfare remains a staple diet for those attending the MAF defence and staff colleges. Processes need to be identified, analysed, and implemented in the best possible manner, and this includes technology and economics.

Would it be a conflict of heavy industry in a scenario like MAF and Malaysia? I very much doubt it, and no victory will be swift.

Anyway, moving on to Weasel;
:D

Have you ever serve in any military orgn that give you an expert opinion that NCW is not force multiplier?

From the posting above , obviously you dunno much abt what is NCW and also very unlikely that you have ever served in military orgn!

First thing,wireless network connectivity is not constraint by any kind of terrain , whether it is in thick primary jungle or the flat plain of a desert.

NCW give any army whether is well trained or otherwise the additional edge of better efficiency, better decision making tools by having a real time situational map of the battlefield and better command & control of troops for the commanders.

Let me give some example for an infantry platoon,and how NCW will improve the efficiency of that platoon(Pl):

1) Firstly I need to explain NCW not only give the location all the friendly troops via GPS which will reduce the possibility of blue on blue situation, it also give the location and composition of detected enemy troops.

2) It also indicated the position of that Pl on the map via GPS, which means that Pl will never get lost even in thick jungle, it could move more efficiently as compare to the old map and compass method where the PC need to constantly refer to his map , make calculation for triangulation of positions etc, and it will never be deployed in the wrong location becos his position will be known by all.

3) More efficient in calling for airstrike or arty support, old method is to give the exact co-ordinate of the enemy location by refering to map which may take a min or so depending how well he know his exact loaction, now the PC just need point it in virtual map on his rugged PDA and the airstrike is on his way.

4) Logistics support will be even more effciently, eventhogh I am not very sure how it work in SAF , but I could roughly guess.

The old method logistic replenishment for ammo for example , is that after every contact, the PL Sgt will gather all the ammo required then he pass that info to CSM where he will then consolidate for the whole coy then pass on the RSM which he will then consolidate for the whole Bn and request for replenishment from the Div logistics base.......

Lot of pen and papar plus manual calculation thru the chain of command, with NCW , all this will be eliminated, all the PCs will just key in his requirement and data wll be consolidated by the network straight to the logistics base, which mean more efficient logistic support.

Now, let look at the marco level, at the Div command post, the Div commander will look at a big realtime virtual map where he could see the movement of his own troops in real time via GPS, all the enemy locations and compostion will be updated by the various sensor managers using their laptop as they are detected by the various sensors like UAV, UGV, recon troops etc, etc.

The map is as realtime as you can get, no more drawing of transpancy, no more request for troops location etc , etc.

Therefore with that, the commander could make better decision and precisely deployed his troops to counter any enemy threats more efficiently, and since the airforce and the navy is also connected, airtsrike and possible NSFS from the airforce and navy respectively will be more efficeint as they are also looking at the same map.

Since I have ROD from the army so I dun have all info of SAF NCW revolution, but based on info from reports and talking to current commander and troops during the recent army open house , it give me rough idea how all thing work.

Afterall I did similar thing in the private sector.

Anyway, I believe the advantages above are only just tip of the iceberg, the potential of NCW is only limited by budget and the current technology, it will be continue to evolve as new technology is available.

Lastly , who said we only trained in urban warfare???

We have secondary forest, palm tree and rubber tree plantation to train in SG, and all our infantry units have at least gone thru twice in their career Jungle training course in the former SAS Jungle training school in Brunei which is now under SAF.

So you guys do not assume w/o doing more research, not only in Brunei , our troops also train in Thailand, ROC etc, so primary forest is not unknown to us, in fact we train in such terrain pretty frequently.
 

levathan

New Member
Just some observations I noticed and thought i should clarify them.

Paskal - The SAF don't spend most of their time in urban training. Most infantry training take place in the jungle. An example would be NCO training which i went through (phase 1 only), phase 1 (11 weeks) is 100% jungle warfare and phase 2 would be 75% jungle and 25% urban. The actual training in infantry units are the same as phase 2.
 

paskal

New Member
Just some observations I noticed and thought i should clarify them.

Paskal - The SAF don't spend most of their time in urban training. Most infantry training take place in the jungle. An example would be NCO training which i went through (phase 1 only), phase 1 (11 weeks) is 100% jungle warfare and phase 2 would be 75% jungle and 25% urban. The actual training in infantry units are the same as phase 2.
what i meant was SAF should be more professional in urban warfare than jungle warfare as their country grounds is suit for urban warefare.:D
in urban warefare technology is one of the most important things.
it goes different in jungle warfare.
 

Mr Ignorant

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Hey there Gary1910,

How are you? Good to see you reply so soon. I made it clear in previous messages that I am an ignorant Non military civilian. Let me repeat to you that I am an ignorant civilian. Excellent :)

I think you missed my point on technology, also Brunei is only two small hills. Any training there is no substitute for training in Malaysia. That is my assumption.

Chino,

Glad to see you back. On your response, I think the keywords I used was "track, locate and engage a elusive enemy". A platoon of townboys in a forest setting are unfortunately, at the mercy of conditions they train in. Perhaps eating rice and salted fish is not too bad, but can they take more intense settings?
 

paskal

New Member
somethng i found out about

im asking to anyone wh is in the malaysian army now:)

did anyone of you now the new malaysian smart artilery that stride created named TAMING SARI?

i read it in a book named TEMPUR.

it is also shown during the malaysian 50th year of indipendance.

juz wanna ask about it?
 

Mr Ignorant

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The Israelis have lawyers, doctors, school teachers etc in the front lines. And as I recall, they won every war.

In WW2, same situation.

Rice and salted fish on a forrested hills is not as bad as you make it out to be. We've all been through it and it's all in a day's work.
The Israeli situation is not I belief, something which can be applied in different environments. Theirs is a novel use of "blitzkrieg", but Lebanon always remained hostile to a armed occupation.

On survivability, perhaps not too highly motivated individual's. But how long can this be sustained in a conflict setting, where conditions can be harsh??? Can a platoon track, and fight at 2 am in the morning after a 6 hour trek??? How long can a platoon of lawyers and accountants last over hilly terrain before the rate of attrition sets in??

Where is the "force multipliers"???
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
im asking to anyone wh is in the malaysian army now:)

did anyone of you now the new malaysian smart artilery that stride created named TAMING SARI?

i read it in a book named TEMPUR.

it is also shown during the malaysian 50th year of indipendance.

juz wanna ask about it?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
On survivability, perhaps not too highly motivated individual's. But how long can this be sustained in a conflict setting, where conditions can be harsh??? Can a platoon track, and fight at 2 am in the morning after a 6 hour trek??? How long can a platoon of lawyers and accountants last over hilly terrain before the rate of attrition sets in??
There are numerous examples across numerous armies.

- The first troops to stop the Japanese in WW2 were australian volunteers. They stopped an army that was regarded as invincible.
- One of the most decorated Aust Divisions in WW2 was the 9th - it was not a regular army division
- The USN found that the best air traffic controllers on their aircraft carriers were stockbrokers....
- One of Australias most famous generals was an engineer and part time militia - he was the only general to be knighted on the battlefield by a monarch in the 20th Cent

its got little to do with prior occupation, its got more to do with insititutional training and development.
 

cm07

New Member
We can. When we train, all civilian forms of comforts/reality are thrown out of the window ...if we have to. If i'm physically weaker than the average joe of my country and can go through that, i dont see why most of those fitter than me cant.

Just because the typical Singaporean wears a suit doesnt mean he cant fit into our No. 4.
 

gary1910

New Member
Hey there Gary1910,

How are you? Good to see you reply so soon. I made it clear in previous messages that I am an ignorant Non military civilian. Let me repeat to you that I am an ignorant civilian. Excellent :)

I think you missed my point on technology, also Brunei is only two small hills. Any training there is no substitute for training in Malaysia. That is my assumption.
Please , dun assume, otherwise you make yourself a laughing stock!!!

Brunei has been the primary Jungle training for one of best special force unit in the world, the Brits Special Air Service (SAS) amd SAF is using the same training ground.

In fact based on my observation, the primary jungle is more hostile than that in peninsular MY, becos it is more rubber and palm tree plantation than primary forest as compare to those in Brunei.

So dun assume , you and paskal are just as ignorant as eachother, getting BS info from those who has never served in your local forum w/o doing any form of research.

If SAF troops is not proficient in jungle training , we should not see compliment like that from AGRA, in fact many of our regulars have went thru US Ranger course, US Pathfinder course, USN BUDs training etc, becos we want to learn from the best eventhough we already established such training in SG for NS and regulars.

Becos we want to refine our training by learning from the best, the result is we see compliment given by other force, self advertising means nothing!!! :D


Admin: Please go back over your post, edit and use approp english rather than text messaging english. It is a requirment of the Forum which we intend to enforce as it can lead to a degradation in overall quality
 

Mr Ignorant

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Hi there CM 07

Thanks. By now I am almost convinced of the virtue of conscripts. But as always, I am the sceptic, because I hate the word "cannon fodder". The trouble with conscription is, it may appear expedient in military terms, but it carries with it wider implications. Society and politics may take an opposing point of view.

G'day GF Aussie,

Training and indoctrination can produce the best, and if past indicators hold, its also a mix and match situation in the US forces. The USAF in WW2 found that rural boys from Nebraska/Nevada/Montana/Kansas/etc were much given to flight training than their urban counterparts.
 

Mr Ignorant

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Please , dun assume, otherwise you make yourself a laughing stock!!!

Brunei has been the primary Jungle training for one of best special force unit in the world, the Brits Special Air Service (SAS) amd SAF is using the same training ground.

In fact based on my observation, the primary jungle is more hostile than that in peninsular MY, becos it is more rubber and palm tree plantation than primary forest as compare to those in Brunei.

So dun assume , you and paskal are just as ignorant as eachother, getting BS info from those who has never served in your local forum w/o doing any form of research.

If SAF troops is not proficient in jungle training , we should not see compliment like that from AGRA, in fact many of our regulars have went thru US Ranger course, US Pathfinder course, USN BUDs training etc, becos we want to learn from the best eventhough we already established such training in SG for NS and regulars.

Becos we want to refine our training by learning from the best, the result is we see compliment given by other force, self advertising means nothing!!! :D
How does 2 small hills in Brunei compensate for a lack of know how and survivability? The twinning programs sounds interesting, but is this enough??

Can a SAF soldier survive in Ulu Kapuas or upriver Mahakam for instance, let a lone a strip of mangrove forests?

Brunei is child's play for MAF survival training.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hey there Gary1910,
Chino,

Glad to see you back. On your response, I think the keywords I used was "track, locate and engage a elusive enemy". A platoon of townboys in a forest setting are unfortunately, at the mercy of conditions they train in. Perhaps eating rice and salted fish is not too bad, but can they take more intense settings?
The Japs that invaded Malaya came straight from China, where they were not fighting in tropical jungles at that time. Theoretically, the English, Aussies, Indian and local forces stationed here should be much better jungle fighters. And in many case they were. But they still lost to the Japs.

The Japs made their major thrusts on the roads. Those allied troops left in the jungle were simply bypassed by the main force to be mopped up later on. And Allied troops stuck in the jungle soon run out of supplies, ammo, energy and morale. And many eventually succumb to illness and disease.

There is also a difference between fighting an insurgency or small conflict and a large scale war. All the jungle skill the MAF possess may not help them if we not looking for the fight in the jungle. Let them hide in the jungle where they can't do much mischief.

When they come out we will meet them with overwhelming force.

And, KL, as I recall, isnt a jungle. So while jungle fighting is an important skill set, it isn't everything.
 
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