Which leads to modern options such as the AGS and, the abortive UK AS90. Still love the look of the Mk71 but that is another pipe dream and could not be carried on current ship types. Interesting that the Mk71 appeared to be lighter than the AGS.
Can a 16 inch HE shell wreck havoc on newer ships?
- Thread starter M1Brams
- Start date
In AegisFC's list of should-have-beens the Spruances that historically didn't get the VLS upgrade should of gotten a Mk-71 up forward (I don't think one could fit back aft though).
AGS has a whole lot of automation that increases its size and complexity.
AGS has a whole lot of automation that increases its size and complexity.
I strongly disagree that a 16” shell wouldn’t do significant damage to a Zumwalt or a Gerald R Ford it’s a freakin one tonne shell smashing into it which in the worst case scenario wouldn’t fuse until it had come out the bottom so the blast effect would be directed on the ship’s keel. Especially since any 16” shell is likely to be followed by many more there is no way a modern ship with minimal armouring could survive. But the most important consideration is not that a 16” shell would smash a modern ship but would it score a hit.
The key consideration here would be speed. Because a battleship, even one with the best fire control systems, would not be able to score a hit on a ship that was faster than it.
Long range gunfire is inherently inaccurate and battleships and other gun armed ships were only able to score hits at long range because of the vulnerability exchange. That is the other ship was trying to hit it with their guns so had to sustain a steady course. By sailing a steady course they could adjust their fire to hit the other target but also made themselves vulnerable to being hit. If you just zig zagged while 10 or more miles away from a battleship they would never score a hit but neither would you hit them.
Since modern ships are armed with guided weapons they would sail evasive manoeuvres making it almost impossible for a statistical weapon to score a hit. The only way the battleship could get a hit with their guns would be to chase down the ship to direct fire ranges and then pound them into the sea. The only way to do that is have a speed advantage. Even an Iowa isn’t as fast as a supercarrier and the Zumwalt may be faster depending on its sea trials.
The Mk 71 could fit in the rear of a Spruance but the Mk 45 was to be retained in the rear position to provide anti air and anti ship fires.
The AGS is a dog’s breakfast resultant from its congressional mandate of capabilities. The US Navy was happily developing the 155mm Vertical Gun for Advanced Ships (VGAS) which would fit into the footprint of a 64 cell Mk 41 VLS with over a 1,000 LRAP shells and fire them rapidly and with minimal complexity to long range. But some elected chimp decided that a ship’s gun had to look like a ship’s gun and be able to fire dumb un-guided shells so VGAS was replaced with AGS and everything got screwed.
Then they decided not to buy any unguided shells
Genius!At least, that's what I understand - that they're not funding any unguided rounds as it's not worth building them or putting them on board, given the reduced magazine capacity of the AGS (350 rpg?)
stewartash
New Member
:ar15
Hi, one 16inch shell on a super carrier wouldn't put it 'out of action'. Sure - lots of 'damage' if the ship lists, may even prevent aircraft from operating but the 'battle' in the movie - just movie mayhem :ar15
fretburner
Banned Member
If FOD could mess up flight operations in a Nimitz, I'm sure a single 16-inch shell will most likely put a hold in flight operations. If it hits the superstructure, then it could be even worse.
Not entirely true, an American submarine, Sea lion II, sunk the Japanese Battleship, Kongo.
Not to mention the Battle of Suirgao Strait.
fretburner
Banned Member
Doesn't the CIWS have its own radar?
I believe there's a version of the CIWS which was built to protect bases from mortar attack. So if it can intercept mortars, I believe larger 16-inch shells can be effectively intercepted as well.
Well , the HE shells are several inches thick and the front is well sloped. The AP round is probably about 2x to 3x the thickness, but only slightly sloped in the front after penetrating the ballistic cap.
Hitting probably won’t be the problem, but even 20mm APDS may come up short on penetration. Reliably taking out an AP round head on will probably require a larger gun and APDSFS ammunition. Or a direct hit from a missile like the RAM may be enough to tumble the round even if the shock does not detonate it.
fretburner
Banned Member
Both projectiles are traveling at hypersonic speeds right? You don't think a 20mm round would penetrate or at least cause the 16-in shell to detonate?
Right. Most USN ships usually have only 2 CIWS and 2 RAMs. And yes, the Battleship would have to defend itself first from a salvo of Harpoons before getting within gun range.
Besides energy from the 867 Kg of HE in the warhead you also must also allow for the kinetic energy. And a bit of luck. If one of those hit a kerosene bunker or a magazine then things are going to turn to custard real quick. What if a shell hit the nuke power plant, especially an Semi AP shell? That would ruin everybodies day. But as mentioned above you would have to get the BB into direct fire range and survive long enough to get off at least one broadside. Then it also depends on you gunnery controls and training. IIRC traditional RN gunnery philosophy was one round over, one round under then the rest on target in broadsides.
No, I don’t think 20mm could penetrate. The 20mm penetrator in the APDS round is just too small compared the thickness and design of target. I think you will need something capable of penetrating at least 4” RHA, possibly as much as 8”, unless there is a nose fuse that you can hit.
A salvo of Harpoons, a full load of SM-2 and half a dozen missiles from the ship's helos... and if any subs are with the attacked group the BB is toast anyway.And yes, the Battleship would have to defend itself first from a salvo of Harpoons before getting within gun range.
Why the "even"? The 15mm sabotted tungsten dart (and no, DU isn't used since the 80s) in 20x102 APDS has atrocious penetration against about anything, mostly because it doesn't need to penetrate anything really.
I cannot find any good figures, but I doubt it can penetrate much over 2", and the nose of a 16" HC is probably twice that thick, and fairly slanted.