Brunei Corvettes

[Pusser01]

Just wondering if anyone has any info as to the current state of the 3 new Brunei corvettes? The last I heard about 6 months ago was that Brunei was refusing to take posession of them. The thought at the time was that they didn't have enough personnel trained to man them.
Any takers?
Cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

From a 20 July 2006 The Age:

BAe Systems is still locked in arbitration in a Paris court over payment for three patrol ships built for the Sultan of Brunei between 2001 and 2004. The ships, worth £600m, have been completed and are at Scotstoun awaiting a legal decision.
The Sultan, one of the world's richest men, claims that the vessels do not match his specifications and has refused to accept delivery. He has paid 90% of the construction price.
A BAe spokesman said yesterday that he could not comment on an issue before the courts, but admitted that a resolution of the dispute could be months away.
The 95-foot patrol boats are armed with Exocet anti-shipping missiles and Sea Wolf anti-aircraft systems as well as rapid-fire guns.

 

[dreamwarrior73]

If Brunei does not want it, why not offer it to Malaysia. Since Malaysia already operated 2 x F2000 frigates (which the Brunei OPV is based from) and they have the dire need for additional frigates.

Plus, Malaysia already issued LOI for 2 more mod. F2000 frigates recently.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Formidable little ship, good range at 5,000 miles as well. Only problem IMO is the lack of a hanger, but I guess it suits Brunei.

 

[Subangite]

What specifications were not met to justify refusal of delivery? I guess we will not know for sometime since the matter is in arbitration. But any speculation?

 

[Sea Toby]

Considering Brunei's small coastline as compared to other nations in the area, I think it was a mistake for Brunei to purchase them. Brunei has a wonderful patrol boat navy in place already. While Brunei is a rich nation, like Nigeria twenty years ago, I am not sure whether their navy can operate these ships effectively, being too sophisticated. I'm not even sure whether their navy base has the room for these three corvettes or the ability to properly man them.

Obviously a very good salesman sold the goods, the ships were ordered. If Brunei is successful in backing out, I'm sure BAe will be able to sell them to another nation. I'm sure Brazil would be interested in a fire sale.

 

[renjer]

If Brunei does not want it, why not offer it to Malaysia. Since Malaysia already operated 2 x F2000 frigates (which the Brunei OPV is based from) and they have the dire need for additional frigates.

Plus, Malaysia already issued LOI for 2 more mod. F2000 frigates recently.

Malaysia is focusing on building it own ships in the country. Our own OPV program is based in Lumut and has 6 confirmed orders for the Kedah-class. The LOI for the 2 frigates calls for construction to take place in Labuan.

Taking up any offer for the Brunei ships would be contrary to this objective.

 

[Sea Toby]

At a fire sale price I can think of a number of nations who may be interested. Brazil, Columbia, Ecuador, Uruaguay, Nigeria, Egypt, Croatia, Slovenia, Romania, Bangladesh, and the Phillipines. The nation which would bid the most is probably Brazil, my favorite nation to get them would be Uruaguay. That is at a fire sale price.

A picture link: http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/nakhoda1.html

 

[dreamwarrior73]

Taking up any offer for the Brunei ships would be contrary to this objective.

why would you say that? please explain.

it is a matter of fact that the RBN did consult with the RMN when they wanted to derive the GSR for the OPVs. and since the OPVs are derived from the F2000 frigates that RMN already had. it would be a good idea to have them as a complement to the existing two F2000 frigates and another two mod. F2000 frigates in progress to make a complete squadron. plus, it would be sell at low price. why not have it? RMN need more capital ships in the fleet.

don't you think adding more capital ships would a good idea?

 

[renjer]

why would you say that? please explain.

it is a matter of fact that the RBN did consult with the RMN when they wanted to derive the GSR for the OPVs. and since the OPVs are derived from the F2000 frigates that RMN already had. it would be a good idea to have them as a complement to the existing two F2000 frigates and another two mod. F2000 frigates in progress to make a complete squadron. plus, it would be sell at low price. why not have it? RMN need more capital ships in the fleet.

don't you think adding more capital ships would a good idea?

Hi, dreamwarrior73. Sorry for the late reply.

The objective I was referring to is the establishment of a strong indigenous naval shipbuilding industry in Malaysia. Buying ready-made vessels does not contribute to the realization of this goal.

The similarity of the Brunei corvettes to Malaysia’s F2000 frigate is a matter of choice by the RBN. It was not mandated by the RMN. The growth of the Malaysian shipbuilding industry as well as the advancement of the country's technological base should not be sacrificed because a foreign government made a mistake.

If the RMN needs more capital ships then these should be constructed in the country.

 

[Sea Toby]

On the other hand if Brunei is not able to duck out of this purchase, I wouldn't be surprised if they sold them quickly to another nation. I see another Nigeria here, a small nation buying ships it don't need. While buying an OPV may be in the cards, buying three corvettes are a mistake. A few good light search and rescue helicopters could accomplish the same mission quicker.

These corvettes are very similar to Malaysia's light frigates. Malaysia would also be a good candidate for a sale. As long as Malaysia builds some warships to develop its industrial base it will be accomplished, buying a few more warships abroad will not kill that effort. Eventually the shipyard would have to make due with maintaining the ships, new orders can not be expected annually anyway.

 

[renjer]

Brunei has got a real tiny navy. She doesn't have a very large pool to recruit from. I think she only has a population of 200-300k. It's been awhile since I last check though.

There's already some discussion on the merits of Malaysia buying the Nakhodas on the RMN thread so I won't add anything further on it here.

Agree with you. These are fine ships and I also wouldn't be surprise if they find another buyer soon.

 

[Sea Toby]

Brunei also has a wonderful patrol boat navy, bought by its oil wealth. Considering the nation's size, corvettes aren't needed unless a North Korea is one of her neighbors. Fortunately, Brunei's neighbors are Indonesia and Malaysia. As you noted, if Brunei had a sizeable navy of personnel, and a large city population of Singapore, I would think differently. But Brunei don't.

Since these are good corvettes, there are a number of nations which could buy them. A larger number of nations could buy them if there is a considerable discount. These corvettes would fit very well into the Brazilian navy. Like Malaysia, Brazil is attempting to build its industrial base too. But its my opinion a nation learns not by just building, you can learn as much breaking things down and putting them back together.

The worst navy in Latin America in my opinion working with obsolescent equipment is Uruaguay. These three corvettes would modernize their navy instantaneously.

 

[contedicavour]

From a 20 July 2006 The Age:

BAe Systems is still locked in arbitration in a Paris court over payment for three patrol ships built for the Sultan of Brunei between 2001 and 2004. The ships, worth £600m, have been completed and are at Scotstoun awaiting a legal decision.
The Sultan, one of the world's richest men, claims that the vessels do not match his specifications and has refused to accept delivery. He has paid 90% of the construction price.
A BAe spokesman said yesterday that he could not comment on an issue before the courts, but admitted that a resolution of the dispute could be months away.
The 95-foot patrol boats are armed with Exocet anti-shipping missiles and Sea Wolf anti-aircraft systems as well as rapid-fire guns.

95 METRES not feet. These are serious FFGs with serious AAW... this limits the number of potential acquirers considerably. If I remember correctly, the only countries operating Sea Wolf are Brazil, Chile, Malaysia.
I wonder what sort of discounts a Navy would get for these brand new ships. If discount isn't huge, I would still wait for second hand European FFGs becoming available (as our Maestrale FFGs as of 2010)

cheers

 

[dreamwarrior73]

If the RMN needs more capital ships then these should be constructed in the country.

well the RMN need more capital ship like yesterday not tomorrow. if you contruct the ship in country, how long would it take to make them online? at least 3 years. buying the Nakhoda class will bring the much needed numbers in the capital ships. recent crisis shows that RMN don't have the numbers for capital ships.

 

[Whiskyjack]

well the RMN need more capital ship like yesterday not tomorrow. if you contruct the ship in country, how long would it take to make them online? at least 3 years. buying the Nakhoda class will bring the much needed numbers in the capital ships. recent crisis shows that RMN don't have the numbers for capital ships.

I agree, what is more important getting the ships or getting the local industry involvement?

IMO the second route is fraught with potential problems.

 

[Subangite]

I agree, what is more important getting the ships or getting the local industry involvement?

Depends what the long run goals are. What's the rush to get more capital ships anyway, especially for the RMN? There aren't any impending naval threats and the neighbours are relatively stable. Theres always the Five Defence Power Agreement in the event of external aggression or threat of attack. Anyways in terms of capital ships, more are coming, the numbers are increasing at pace.

IMO the second route is fraught with potential problems.

Yes I agree too. This happens through out the world, neighbouring Australia had problems with their locally built Collins class subs. But the main point here is capability of local design and production, engineering expertise, local employment.

Back to the topic, the RBN Nakhoda class OPV's aren't cheap, for the same price, the RMN could get 2 already proven Lekiu class frigates. IMO, the Nakhoda class OPV's should only be considered by the RMN if and only if considerable discounts are given.

These are fine vessels but navies in other parts of the world could use these OPV's more than the RMN.

 

[arkhan]

recent crisis

well the RMN need more capital ship like yesterday not tomorrow. if you contruct the ship in country, how long would it take to make them online? at least 3 years. buying the Nakhoda class will bring the much needed numbers in the capital ships. recent crisis shows that RMN don't have the numbers for capital ships.

huh! recent crisis?,
can you please explain it? i hope it is not military level crisis.

 

[Ding]

one thing that still bugs me, why is these ships called OPV's, judging by their armerment and sensors, i think they are either light frigates or corvette standards.

 

[f2000]

well the RMN need more capital ship like yesterday not tomorrow. if you contruct the ship in country, how long would it take to make them online? at least 3 years. buying the Nakhoda class will bring the much needed numbers in the capital ships. recent crisis shows that RMN don't have the numbers for capital ships.

well what i want to say here is about funding.
ngpv problem cost a lot to rmn's budget n for future order of f2000 batch 2 it will also cost a lot of money due to local building n tot.
i don't think our defence budget is high right.

dear arkhan,
the recent crisis is about sea teritorial dispute between malaysia n indonesia in sabah or kalimantan .well its about oil i think.
however it was solved through diplomacy.