Best Army in South Asia...
- Thread starter dabrownguy
- Start date
- Status
Roger Smith
New Member
It is very simple query to know, if Pakistani or Indian armies are the best army from the answers as follows;
1) Which country won 1948 war?
2) Which country won 1965 war?
3) Which country won 1971 war?
4) Which country won Kargil 1999 war?
The readers can work out themselves if the aforementioned wars was lost, won or stalemate, then figure out the points.
My views;
1) 1948 war was a stalemate.
2) 1965 war was a stalemate.
3) 1971, India won the war as Pakistan lost half of its territory East Pakistan.
4) Kargil 1999, war was a stalemate.
India wins 1 point and has a better army.
Guys and gals, how do you find my solution? :?:
1) Which country won 1948 war?
2) Which country won 1965 war?
3) Which country won 1971 war?
4) Which country won Kargil 1999 war?
The readers can work out themselves if the aforementioned wars was lost, won or stalemate, then figure out the points.
My views;
1) 1948 war was a stalemate.
2) 1965 war was a stalemate.
3) 1971, India won the war as Pakistan lost half of its territory East Pakistan.
4) Kargil 1999, war was a stalemate.
India wins 1 point and has a better army.
Guys and gals, how do you find my solution? :?:
Historically quoting 50, 40, 30 year old conflicts and slaving their outcomes to a points-based system is not a definitive 'solution' to determine a superior force of current or whatever this thread is about.Roger Smith said:
What do other people think? :roll
Kargil, 1999 was not an all-out war either, both sides did not (fortunately) have the chance to bring to fore every node of power and armament they could bring to bear on each other to conclusively decide which, what or wherever.
The Watcher
New Member
Wrong! In 1948, AJK was liberated! So basically it was loss on the indian side because they lost part of territory they hoped to control like rest of the occupied kashmir.
And if you are going with the years, go back to 1947 when India was broken up into three pieces and Pakistan came into existence.
1971 war pakistan lost because of political unrest and because of the politcians. Does not really show incompetence of the army! Besides, the point is if you have subdued your enemey(pakistan) which isn't the case, Pakistan came out stronger and better after 1971 and still remains problem and a threat to India. So 1971 even after the break doesn't really present any better picture for india.
Not necessarily Majin-Vegata...Pakistan and India are both radically different when it comes to population and economic size which both have an influence on military strength...This does not mean some staff officers in Pakistan have worked out that one soldier is worth two Indian soldiers...No. That is not realistic. It means military size is defined by other factors. Pakistan has a much smaller population for instance, hence a smaller military. Granted, the relationship is not direct, but it does have an effect. As a proportion of the economy, Pakistan spends much, much more on the military than India does, because it needs to (in a sense as to remain on par with a India's higher military expenditure).Majin-Vegeta said:hey idiot, READ u freak, 3 million divided by 2 = 1.5 Million, that is wat Pakistan has, therefore..1 Paki can kill 2 Indian soldiers. Understood?
You really need to take Math class
pakcamando14
New Member
ok ok ok i am sorry indus i will try to not to make you laugh and i will write things that are known facts. but i still think that the pakistani army i better. plus i am a new person in this.
Pakcomando, it would be better if you can list some reasons why you think Pakistani army is better or is well equiped, etc.
We at Deftalk do not like bitching contests where you get in this "my dad can beat yours..." bs and it leads to fights and ruined threads. I hope you keep your cool and patriotism aside when discussing such matters. Also, read our rules - they will help you last longer on the forum. Thanks, enjoy!!!
We at Deftalk do not like bitching contests where you get in this "my dad can beat yours..." bs and it leads to fights and ruined threads. I hope you keep your cool and patriotism aside when discussing such matters. Also, read our rules - they will help you last longer on the forum. Thanks, enjoy!!!
pakcamando14
New Member
i just want to know what happend in the 1999 kargil war and who won it and how did it start.
Sure thing yaar.. if you want a neutral and unbiased assesment of the events leading up to, during and the conclusion of the 1999 Kargil war you can go to this website article from Globalsecurity.org...pakcamando14 said:i just want to know what happend in the 1999 kargil war and who won it and how did it start.
---> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kargil-99.htm
Sure thing yaar.. if you want a neutral and unbiased assesment of the events leading up to, during and the conclusion of the 1999 Kargil war you can go to this website article from Globalsecurity.org...pakcamando14 said:i just want to know what happend in the 1999 kargil war and who won it and how did it start.
---> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kargil-99.htm
keep in mind though that Kargill wasn't really a full-fledged war.. it was more like a 3-month battle.. and btw there really is no need to sit here and argue who won war or not.. war is not a good thing.. it just drains money that both of our countries could be using on developing into a modern, stable states.
i hope this would also settle the doubts:
Indian Army fumes over critical US report
SIFY NEWS
New Delhi: The Army's top brass is fuming over a secret US report which has labelled its officers as too intellectual and which says its infrastructure is crumbling, a weekly magazine reported.
The US report has further described officers from Pakistan as more flexible, accommodating and easy to work with while calling their Indian counterparts protocol-bound and easily slighted.
The 141-page report titled "Indo-US Relationship: Expectations and Perceptions" is an assessment by the American Defence Department and draws input from Pentagon officials working with the Indian army.
"Indian elites are quintessentially intellectual. They thrive off finely-tuned arguments and logic, but US military outfits are businesslike and not interested in intellectual arguments -- they are interested in practical issues," the report says, according to the magazine.
"Consequently, they find India's intellectual arrogance off-putting and counter-productive."
Army officers dismissed the conclusion saying that though their officers were well-educated, most did not have the luxury of time to indulge in intellectual reading or writing until after retirement.
They added that the Indian army routinely served in the fiery heat of its northwestern deserts and at the Siachen mountain range, one of the world's highest mountain ranges.
"The comparison with Pakistan does not stand. Every Pakistani officer has done time in this or that US academy; they probably have the same military drills. The Indian situation is different," Brigadier Virender Saxena said.
The report also criticised the Indian army's infrastructure. "Many American officers observed that while the Indians have a large military and is relatively more sophisticated than others in the region, the vast infrastructure is crumbling," it said.
One US general described his visit to Indian army headquarters as "walking back in time."
The Indian army agreed about the need for modernisation of the force but said they were dependent on bureaucracy for funds, similar to any democracy.
New Delhi and Washington have been intensifying military cooperation in the last three years after US lifted sanctions against India for a series of nuclear tests conducted in 1998.
now i need find this report.2
some more on this report:
http://www.saag.org/papers8/paper754.html
http://www.dawn.com/2003/06/16/top13.htm
http://www.samachar.com/features/210703-features.html
Indian Army fumes over critical US report
SIFY NEWS
New Delhi: The Army's top brass is fuming over a secret US report which has labelled its officers as too intellectual and which says its infrastructure is crumbling, a weekly magazine reported.
The US report has further described officers from Pakistan as more flexible, accommodating and easy to work with while calling their Indian counterparts protocol-bound and easily slighted.
The 141-page report titled "Indo-US Relationship: Expectations and Perceptions" is an assessment by the American Defence Department and draws input from Pentagon officials working with the Indian army.
"Indian elites are quintessentially intellectual. They thrive off finely-tuned arguments and logic, but US military outfits are businesslike and not interested in intellectual arguments -- they are interested in practical issues," the report says, according to the magazine.
"Consequently, they find India's intellectual arrogance off-putting and counter-productive."
Army officers dismissed the conclusion saying that though their officers were well-educated, most did not have the luxury of time to indulge in intellectual reading or writing until after retirement.
They added that the Indian army routinely served in the fiery heat of its northwestern deserts and at the Siachen mountain range, one of the world's highest mountain ranges.
"The comparison with Pakistan does not stand. Every Pakistani officer has done time in this or that US academy; they probably have the same military drills. The Indian situation is different," Brigadier Virender Saxena said.
The report also criticised the Indian army's infrastructure. "Many American officers observed that while the Indians have a large military and is relatively more sophisticated than others in the region, the vast infrastructure is crumbling," it said.
One US general described his visit to Indian army headquarters as "walking back in time."
The Indian army agreed about the need for modernisation of the force but said they were dependent on bureaucracy for funds, similar to any democracy.
New Delhi and Washington have been intensifying military cooperation in the last three years after US lifted sanctions against India for a series of nuclear tests conducted in 1998.
now i need find this report.
2some more on this report:
http://www.saag.org/papers8/paper754.html
http://www.dawn.com/2003/06/16/top13.htm
http://www.samachar.com/features/210703-features.html
Well ullu, even if this report is true, these difference are unlikely to compensate for India's sheer size, numbers, and more advanced equipment in an all-out war. This report was probably conducted a year or more ago. Since middle of last year, India has already made huge investments in modernizing the military. Within this time, India has spent billions of dollars on advanced Radars (Phalcon, Green Pine, Firefinder), 280 Denel G6 artillery units, 310 T-90Ss, upgraded Gorshkov AC., Will soon induct the BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles into the Navy and are working to make an IAF version for Sukhois, India will soon have license to locally manufacture Sukhoi 30s, and are in the process of negotiating the purchase of French nuclear subs, and have allocated over $100 Billion for even more advanced weaponry to be spent over the next 15 yrs.
Yes it is true that Pakistan military command and infrastructure is based on years of U.S. training.. so there is definitely a difference. However US has vastly been increasing military cooperation w/ India - including exercises/training. So far that may be an advantage for Pakistan, but this advantage would unlikely be able to compensate for India's equipment/numbers/size advantage. It certainly did not help too much in the previous wars fought w/ India. Including the recent/modern era Indian victory in 1999 Kargil war.
Yes it is true that Pakistan military command and infrastructure is based on years of U.S. training.. so there is definitely a difference. However US has vastly been increasing military cooperation w/ India - including exercises/training. So far that may be an advantage for Pakistan, but this advantage would unlikely be able to compensate for India's equipment/numbers/size advantage. It certainly did not help too much in the previous wars fought w/ India. Including the recent/modern era Indian victory in 1999 Kargil war.
Indus, ullu's article has nothing to do with hardware or weaponry, but the people...It also has nothing to do with 'advantages' over India and Pakistan...The thread entitlement is 'Best Army in South Asia,' not who's got the most number of zeros in their defence procurement budget between India and Pakistan.Indus said:
:frosty
Winter, I was just pointing out that the supposed superiority in Pakistan's military command structure and infrastructure, which is based on years of U.S. training would be unlikely to compensate for India's advantages in many other category such as size, numbers, more modern weaponry..Winter said:
Besides, India's military command is not so inept that it would make its advantages worthless. If that were true then Pakistan would control more than only 30% of Kashmir, wouldn't it. And Pakistan should not have lost the most recent 1999 Kargil War so decisively, if India was so much more inept than Pakistan.
Now that U.S.-India relations are getting warmer, the military cooperation b/w the two is growing and this will help in that area.
When assessing the superiority of an Army over another, all aspects of a military must be taken into account, b/c some advantages in one category may be overshadowed by other advantages on the opposing side.
And the disparity (difference) in one area may not be so huge as to determine the overall quality of the force - or who would win a war.
:lol
Pakistan had 30% of kashmir way back in 1948, after that Pak india went to war three times but india failed to gain that so little 30% of the kashmir.
as far as kargil, which country's defence miniter was involved in the "body bag scandal?" India, how many deaths were reported and how many body bags were ordered? 3000 body bags were ordered and very low casuality rate was reported but it all opened up when it was known that after the war 3000 body bags were ordered. That only due to few hundred or few thousand Kashmiris had taken up high hills in that conflict. Imagine if Nawaz sharif the traitor wasn't under pressure to put halt on the assault.
Not to mention whos airforce pilot was shot down and captured during kargil conflict?
which army sat on pakistani borders for over 10 months and blew its self up on same land mines that it layed? Indian.
Settle down folks
If Pakistan controlled 30% in 1948, and still control 30% now - that would mean they have gained a total of 0% land since 1948.. So then you tell me why Pakistan's army is superior.. THats what we are debating about.. Why is Pakistan's army so much better - b/c it hasnt been shown on the battlefield.ullu said:
As for your funny exaggerated claims about Kargil War.. I would ask you to try not to presume to know everthing that Pakistani news media puts out, b/c they would tend to be biased, especially in war defeat.. I could give you dozenz of Indian articles that claim much different than what your pakistani artilces say.. so if you want a neutral assesment of Kargil War go to globalsecurity.org.
---> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kargil-99.htm
I dont like to keep doing this tit-for-tat, but if you bring it than I have to respond to unsubstantiated claims..
well since your bragging about indian army's superiority i thought it would be good to point out that the land that pakistan TOOK in 1948 is still with and pakistans control. the land that ever so belongs to india is still under pakistani control the superior indian army was suppose to get that back and so far 3 wars but army thats 3 times bigger than pakistans couldn't do it. :lol
as far as kargil where did i point out pakistani articles? it was right there in indian news media. have you forgotten about the 3000 body bag scandal??? :? i didnt even bring anything or posted anything from "pakistani media" as if indian media is not biased. :lol
as far as kargil where did i point out pakistani articles? it was right there in indian news media. have you forgotten about the 3000 body bag scandal??? :? i didnt even bring anything or posted anything from "pakistani media" as if indian media is not biased. :lol
here another pakistani media news article for you:
Now, body bags trouble for George
Tribune News Service
New Delhi, February 26
Defence Minister George Fernandes seems to have got into a habit of inviting trouble. After the “coffingate†scam, the booklet sent by Mr Fernandes to MPs explaining the “real†story in the purchase of the aluminium caskets for soldiers has now led to new allegations of irregularities in the purchase of 3,000 body bags for the coffins.
Rajya Sabha member and senior advocate R.K. Anand today alleged that according to the documents in the booklet itself while the rate of body bags mentioned was $ 27.50 per bag, the deal was finally signed at a rate of $ 85 each.
Speaking to mediapersons here, Mr Anand, who last month received a letter from Defence Minister George Fernandes along with a booklet issued by freelance journalist R.V. Pandit to clarify the issue, said he had unearthed the discrepancy on the basis of the official notes in the booklet.
The booklet, which was brought out by Mr Pandit although on his own initiative, but it had the backing of the Defence Minister and the Defence Ministry. He was provided with the official documents and later Mr Fernandes in an apparent bid to absolve himself had circulated the booklet among the MPs with his personal letter attached.
The booklet cited an official note quoting the price for a casket at $ 2,500 and that of a body bag at $ 27.50 “as per information received from our MA (military attaché) in Washington.†But while citing the contract purchase order, Mr Anand alleged, the booklet missed out the rate of the body bag deliberately.
The MP, however, procured a notarized copy of the contract from a Texas firm wherein the rate for body bags was mentioned at $ 85.
Mr Anand also demanded that Mr Fernandes be booked under the Official Secrets Act for circulating the official documents for public consumption.
Reading from the booklet, he also pointed out that companies from France, the UK and Germany had previously offered caskets at much less price than the one at which the government purchased them in August, 1999.
He also questioned the credentials of Mr Pandit who came to the defence of the Defence Minister by bringing out the booklet, describing it as “nothing but sham.â€
Referring to the Defence Minister’s claim that the casket deal was not seen by him before it was struck, Mr Anand said why did he not take action against the Army officials responsible for it.
“If he is not himself involved in the issue, what was the need for getting a booklet published to defend him,†he asked.
oh wait but its from:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020227/nation.htm#5
Now, body bags trouble for George
Tribune News Service
New Delhi, February 26
Defence Minister George Fernandes seems to have got into a habit of inviting trouble. After the “coffingate†scam, the booklet sent by Mr Fernandes to MPs explaining the “real†story in the purchase of the aluminium caskets for soldiers has now led to new allegations of irregularities in the purchase of 3,000 body bags for the coffins.
Rajya Sabha member and senior advocate R.K. Anand today alleged that according to the documents in the booklet itself while the rate of body bags mentioned was $ 27.50 per bag, the deal was finally signed at a rate of $ 85 each.
Speaking to mediapersons here, Mr Anand, who last month received a letter from Defence Minister George Fernandes along with a booklet issued by freelance journalist R.V. Pandit to clarify the issue, said he had unearthed the discrepancy on the basis of the official notes in the booklet.
The booklet, which was brought out by Mr Pandit although on his own initiative, but it had the backing of the Defence Minister and the Defence Ministry. He was provided with the official documents and later Mr Fernandes in an apparent bid to absolve himself had circulated the booklet among the MPs with his personal letter attached.
The booklet cited an official note quoting the price for a casket at $ 2,500 and that of a body bag at $ 27.50 “as per information received from our MA (military attaché) in Washington.†But while citing the contract purchase order, Mr Anand alleged, the booklet missed out the rate of the body bag deliberately.
The MP, however, procured a notarized copy of the contract from a Texas firm wherein the rate for body bags was mentioned at $ 85.
Mr Anand also demanded that Mr Fernandes be booked under the Official Secrets Act for circulating the official documents for public consumption.
Reading from the booklet, he also pointed out that companies from France, the UK and Germany had previously offered caskets at much less price than the one at which the government purchased them in August, 1999.
He also questioned the credentials of Mr Pandit who came to the defence of the Defence Minister by bringing out the booklet, describing it as “nothing but sham.â€
Referring to the Defence Minister’s claim that the casket deal was not seen by him before it was struck, Mr Anand said why did he not take action against the Army officials responsible for it.
“If he is not himself involved in the issue, what was the need for getting a booklet published to defend him,†he asked.
oh wait but its from:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020227/nation.htm#5
Here another one
all pakistani media news reporting:
The CAG report, which was released in the second week of December, states that nearly all the supplies were either received or contracted well after the end of the conflict in July 1999. Its most damning revelation relates to the purchase of 500 aluminum caskets and 3,000 body bags at a cost of Rs.6.5 crores. According to the report, though these were not "complex items", only one bid (from an American company) was entertained and the possibility of indigenous and other sources was not considered. What the Opposition parties and many former defence personnel find even more objectionable is the price of the metal coffins - $2,500 (about Rs.1.2 lakh at the current exchange rate) apiece. Before taking delivery, the report says, no evaluation or acceptance tests were carried out. According to the Defence Ministry, the procurement was expedited owing to the urgent need to airlift bodies from the Kargil sector. But the coffins came too late.
2nd paragraph from top
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1826/18260250.htm
all pakistani media news reporting:
The CAG report, which was released in the second week of December, states that nearly all the supplies were either received or contracted well after the end of the conflict in July 1999. Its most damning revelation relates to the purchase of 500 aluminum caskets and 3,000 body bags at a cost of Rs.6.5 crores. According to the report, though these were not "complex items", only one bid (from an American company) was entertained and the possibility of indigenous and other sources was not considered. What the Opposition parties and many former defence personnel find even more objectionable is the price of the metal coffins - $2,500 (about Rs.1.2 lakh at the current exchange rate) apiece. Before taking delivery, the report says, no evaluation or acceptance tests were carried out. According to the Defence Ministry, the procurement was expedited owing to the urgent need to airlift bodies from the Kargil sector. But the coffins came too late.
2nd paragraph from top
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1826/18260250.htm
- Status