Beslan School Raid (Fresh Update)

highsea

New Member
Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

Of course there were failures.

I was responding to comments that have since been edited. Specifically, the accusation that the Russians staged this for political gain. But this is what I mean by an "agenda"

EDIT: Parallel thread:

From "Flash Points":
watcher said:
There you have it folks. A clear cut denial. Stage managed terrorism from world "powers" to gather up support for continue to kill more people in chechnya. now we know why the rescue/siege of the school was never planned! Russians wanted as many people to die to win sympathy from the world who is deaf and blind. its horrible and pathetic.
watcher said:
Fight for liberation of Chechnya will continue no matter how government try to associate terrorism with it. Same goes for other occupied parts of the world where major "democracies" are stage managing terrorism, kill and raping women just so that somehow they can associate it with terrorism and jump on the US band wagon for terrorism.
http://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2968

I guess BBC's don't always work on edits, but you get the drift. This sets me off, partly for personal reasons, and partly for moral ones.

I have a tendency to read more than one thread at a time. If we combined these threads, my response would make more sense.

Let's get back to the topic.

-CM
 

highsea

New Member
Re: Beslan School Raid (Updated)

gf0012-aust said:
my last post for a few weeks! I'm off to Germany for work.
GF, have a good one in Germany. I hear they have some decent brews there. :D: (I don't know how to get those drinking smileys)

I will forthwith quote the text pertaining to my comments. I will also try to stay on topic, but as you see, I have already drifted.... :p

-CM~~~will try not to make a mess of things while Gary is out of town
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #23
Re: Beslan School Raid (Final Update)

Nothing whatsoever can explain or justify the unspeakable cruelty of the terrorists, who remain solely responsible for the wholesale massacre of children in the school in Beslan.

Nevertheless, some responsibility for the calamitous outcome also belongs to Russia's special military units which, yet again, bungled a rescue operation and exacerbated the tragedy.

The Russian Spetsnaz, or special forces, have had a glorious reputation for decades.

Indeed, as the Soviet Union collapsed, they were the only troops of an otherwise despised and ridiculed Russian military still considered fashionable.

Every street market in Russia sells some items of their uniform or insignia, and most young Russian men - even those who will do everything to escape military service - still wear them eagerly.

Special status

The Alpha hostage rescue unit, directly subordinated to Russia's FSB security service, is considered an elite within the elite - the ultimate in military ruthlessness and precision.

Yet, as the horror of the Beslan school indicates, much of this reputation is unwarranted.

The Russian military's first failure during the latest school hostage crisis was in the overall strategy.

As any anti-terrorism expert knows, not all such hostage crises are the same. If the number of hostages is relatively small, the situation can be fairly stable, and a government has some time to negotiate with the terrorists, while preparing its response.

But if the number of hostages is large - and it was huge in the Beslan school - the situation is inherently unstable from the start, and violence can erupt at any moment.

The reason for this is that the terrorists themselves are unsure of their situation, and the chances are high that some of the hostages would rebel, thereby starting the shoot-out everyone is seeking to avoid.

Taken by surprise

Either way, it should have been clear from the start that, even if the Russian government ruled out a military assault on the school - as President Vladimir Putin now claims - preparations to storm the building at a moment's notice should have been ready.
Yet nothing of the kind appears to have been planned: when the explosions and shooting started, it caught the Russian military commanders completely by surprise.

The result was no less than 10 hours of shooting - just about the surest way of guaranteeing heavy casualties.

Ultimately, the Russian troops did what they know best: shoot in all directions with massive firepower, rather than execute the surgical strike required in such circumstances.

The result was that 40% of all the hostages were killed, and another 40% were injured, a staggering tally which is much worse than in any other mass hostage crisis in living memory.

The conclusion is inescapable. Despite massive resources poured into the training of special forces, the Russian officer class still belongs to the generation educated in waging total war on the plains of Europe, rather than the carefully calibrated art of a small amount of firepower, precisely applied for minutes in order to achieve the desired outcome.

Poor coordination

Initial indications suggest that Russia's divided command structure did not help, either.
The Alpha force, for instance, had its own plans to storm the building, but these were not shared with the central intelligence commando units who were also in place, or with the regular troops who provided the security cordon around the school.

It is quite likely, therefore, that some of the victims were hit by cross-fire from those who were supposed to rescue them.

Nor is this blunder unique: in every previous mass hostage situation, Russia's special forces used too much firepower, and used it inefficiently.

This was the case with a hospital hostage crisis in the Caucasus in 1995, and with the attempted rescue of hostages in a Moscow theatre building in October 2002.

In all such cases, a huge percentage of the hostages perished; sadly, the Russian concept of rescue usually comes in a coffin.

Chechnya bloodbath

Yet the blunders of the Russian military extend much further, and encompass not only the response to terrorist attacks, but also the strategy of preventing these attacks from taking place.

During the last 10 years of a vicious war in Chechnya, thousands of young, inexperienced Russian soldiers were sent into unfamiliar territory where they were instantly slaughtered.

Moscow, in turn, responded by carpet-bombing complete villages and cities.

With each day that passed, the opportunity to for a peaceful settlement faded even further into the distance.

In Chechnya, destroyed towns are now inhabited almost exclusively by old people, abandoned by younger men who escaped to the mountains to continue fighting.

A great deal of the suicide bombers and terrorists now are women - the so-called "Black Widows" - sisters of dead Chechen fighters, sworn to avenge their own families, even at the cost of their own lives.

If there was ever a surer way of encouraging further terrorism, the Russian military has invented it.

Widespread corruption and demoralisation among the Russian troops complete this sad picture. In quite a few documented cases, Russian conscripts sold their equipment to intermediaries who then passed it to Chechen separatists.

And checkpoints, set up throughout the turbulent southern Caucasus region in order to hamper the movement of terrorists, are easily circumvented with a small bribe.
Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3632332.stm



Besides the report by BBC, several report indicated that Alfa and Vympel lacked ammunition when they arrived and have to borrow from civillians and interior ministry troops. Despite the failure of the Russian authority, the courage of Russian SF are to be admired, many of the operaters died shielding the hostages with their bodies. This incident will serve as a lesson for CT units around the world for many years to come, and hopefully, we won't see this kind of blood bath again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3660718.stm

Above link is collection of photos after the school reopened under heavy security.
 

VICTORA1

New Member
Highsea,
It took Britain a long time to realize to make peace with ira---the people they had called terrorists for a long time and people who were doing fund raisings in boston freely for many years. But killing children is not justifiable either way, be they blonde haired blue green or gray eyed, or dark hair dark skin brown or black eyes.

The goal of the terrorists at this stage is to infuriate the west so much against the moderate muslim nations and their moderate administrations that the west would retaliate against these nations and the extremists would say to the local populace ' we told you so, never to trust the ferengi ' and all we moderates have accomplished so far would be washed away just in a moment and people like you with your statements of killing every memeber of the family would be resonsible for that. But do you give a shit about it----I don't think so. Do you have any idea as to what a moderate has to go through in his or hers daily life just to think and act differently than these extremists---I don't think you have any clue about it. Do you care for a fleeting moment if these moderates loose their lives standing up to these extremist, I don't believe so---you are just another loud mouth who wants to ride the wave and can't see beyond their nose. Musharraf was right in stating that there was an iron curtain going up between two civilizations. There are not enough people trying to keep it down.
 

highsea

New Member
VICTORA1 said:
The goal of the terrorists at this stage is to infuriate the west so much against the moderate muslim nations and their moderate administrations that the west would retaliate against these nations and the extremists would say to the local populace ' we told you so, never to trust the ferengi ' and all we moderates have accomplished so far would be washed away just in a moment and people like you with your statements of killing every memeber of the family would be resonsible for that.
In the first place, I was repeating a statement made to me by a friend. I did not say it was my view, in fact I disagreed strongly with him. To me, that position is no better than the terrorists. What I get pissed off about is the suggestion that the Beslan massacre was somehow staged by the Russian Government. I hear the same sort of accusations about 9/11 from Muslims on this board. I hardly consider that a moderate view. And I do believe that someone who targets schoolchildren in this fashion does not deserve to live.
VICTORA1 said:
But do you give a *shuck* about it----I don't think so. Do you have any idea as to what a moderate has to go through in his or hers daily life just to think and act differently than these extremists---I don't think you have any clue about it.
Tell me, why is it so difficult to think and act differently than the extremists?
VICTORA1 said:
Do you care for a fleeting moment if these moderates loose their lives standing up to these extremist, I don't believe so---you are just another loud mouth who wants to ride the wave and can't see beyond their nose. Musharraf was right in stating that there was an iron curtain going up between two civilizations. There are not enough people trying to keep it down.
I will tell you something. I have a lot of respect for the Muslims who stand up to the extremists. In Iraq, Muslims are taking as many casualties as the US in fighting the jihadis. In Afghanistan, the same holds true. When Muslims actually stand up and do something about the problem, they get my support. Just like Musharraf has it.

I also agree with Musharraf that there is an iron curtain going up. The general opinion of people in most Muslim countries seems to be one of hatred towards the US, and blame of the US for every problem in their lives. They seem to be unable to take any sort of responsibility for their own situation. This attitude has been taught in schools and mosques throughout the mid-east for years. This will lead to war, and that pisses me off.
 

mysterious

New Member
That is one of the basic problems of human beings! No body wants to take responsibility for what they are responsible for themselves. The US and its citizens think that its all Muslims fault and the Muslims think that its all US' fault. Untill everyone realizes that they all have a part-taking in this new civilizational crisis, nothing can be achieved and the iron curtain would ever draw upwards. There are always more than one-side/view to a story/situation; everyone with a stake in that situation has to learn to compromise and be prepared to held accountable for what they've done and/or are diong. :smokingc:
 
Top