BAE Hawk kicked out of Singapore advanced trainer contest

[kams]

No! The contract was strictly for 66 AJTs with no more option to buy. Out of the 66, BAE was to provide 24 and 42 to be manufactured in India.

Hmm, strange isn't it.

 

[just.sentinel]

Well, not so strange perhaps. I suppose the idea, at the back of the mind, was always for HAL to continue with the production if the IAF needed more Hawks. Unless HAL decides that it will go ahead with an advanced trainer based on the Sitara and the Tejas - though I doubt that.

 

[nevidimka]

Strange that you say it has a bad reputation, when it has sold to so many customers, over so many years. Which trainers (excluding any not yet in service) can you name with a better reputation, & can you explain their sales records? And why did Singapore, with its reputation for taking extreme care in selection, shortlist the Hawk?

Sorry, I've might have worded it improperly. I know that the hawk's are a famous trainers widely exported, and I do like its design, but I feel its design is getting old. Recent records of it in operation is damaging. SAF doesnt have to look far, it just have to look at RMAF, for the losses of its hawk's. And the more recent problems with indian pruchase can happen again, which is probably why they removed it. PLus there is the newer designed trainers like the Yak 130 which is looking very attractive.

 

[oldsoak]

If the RSAF had taken a look at RAAF experience with the Hawk ( after all, they train in Oz ) they might have found that the RAAF are quite happy with the Hawks. As are quiote a few other users. I suspect that the RSAF may want the trainer to fulfil a bit more than the training role. The Korean offering for instance has twice the thrust and supersonic - not quite an ordinary trainer, and likewise the Aermacchi has twice the thrust of the Hawk. Considering the RSAF were previously flying the S211, this a huge jump in capability.

 

[Super Nimrod]

Have BAE announced any plans for another trainer to replace the Hawk ?

 

[Sea Toby]

I like the South Korean T-50 so much, if the Kiwis wished to get back into the air combat business, the T-50 would be a great light fighter as well as a trainer. Unfortunately, the current government of New Zealand intends to remain out of the air combat business. This aircraft is more affordable than acquiring F-35s.

 

[swerve]

... The Korean offering for instance has twice the thrust and supersonic - not quite an ordinary trainer, and likewise the Aermacchi has twice the thrust of the Hawk. Considering the RSAF were previously flying the S211, this a huge jump in capability.

Naah - the comparison is really with their A-4 trainers. Retired as trainers a couple of years ago, but an air force the size of Singapores can afford to have a hiatus. Trainee pilots can use the aircraft of friendly air forces, multinational training centres, etc., temporarily.

 

[just.sentinel]

Yep, Singapore uses 16 converted T/A-4 Skyhawks for its advanced training. These are based out of Friance.

The 211s, I believe, are used for the Basic Wings programme and being replaced with the PC-21s.

 

[Alpha Epsilon]

I don't think Hawk is at the end. The line should be active with current orders until 2010 in the UK and about 2011-2012 in India. The Indians are very likely to order another 57 which should prolong the Indian line to 2014 or so.

The UK line could easily be extended if the Saudis order aircraft as expected. There are other opportunities and also lots of upgrade work to be done for current users.

 

[Tebuan]

Sorry, I've might have worded it improperly. I know that the hawk's are a famous trainers widely exported, and I do like its design, but I feel its design is getting old. Recent records of it in operation is damaging. SAF doesnt have to look far, it just have to look at RMAF, for the losses of its hawk's. And the more recent problems with indian pruchase can happen again, which is probably why they removed it. PLus there is the newer designed trainers like the Yak 130 which is looking very attractive.

RMAF can hardly be cited as a good example of user to take cue from. Their record with Hawks is bad from day one, including low serviceability rates initially. But not all of RMAF Hawks are the garden variety trainers, I think 18/28 were Hawk Mk208s with combat capability. Based on reports of numerous crashes, I suspect Indonesian Air Force has dismal record with Hawks also. Wonder whether tropical operating conditions play a part in serviceability. Elsewhere (eg. NFTC, Finland, Switzerland, UK, Korea(?), Australia etc) they seem to be thriving.
Maybe RSAF criteria was also looking at the longevity of the production line to support long term usage on spares etc. They take long term view on any purchase.