Bad time for stealth planes..

Wooki

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Grand Danois said:
@Wooki

I am curious about your previous post regarding the number of receivers needed.

The Kolchuga is described as an ESM ie using passive sensors. Do you think the Kolchuga could be used as a passive radar ie using illumination form a 3rd party?
Not to be rude, but I honestly think that any further comment I made upon the capabilities of these systems would be inappropriate on a public forum.

But I can say that most posters here are correct in that JORN is the yardstick.

cheers

W
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Not rude at all. ;)

I am not in a position to know what qualifies as public knowledge and can be openly discussed. So I consider I myself can discuss freely. As a professional I guess you better stop early or not get into it at all...

I rely on what is on the net and that is really not insignificant. Even in this case of LPI vs ESM.

Cheers
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Todjaeger said:
Quite correct, though I hadn't heard about a minimum range, since it apparently has been tested on tracking vehicles moving through northern Australia.
I can confirm that. In the early tests done in the mid 80's we tracked ground vehicles from over 1500km away as a routine test.

Todjaeger said:
I'm sure Australia is eager to export such an early warning system. Really. :rolleyes:
The only agreement we have has only recently been signed. Thats a co-development agreement with the US as they are interested in merging JORN capability into existing US global tracking capability. We do however, play an active role in sharing out data where approp.

The system is not available for export.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
swerve said:
Which does, very well, from what I've heard. But it doesn't give a precise enough location for aiming a missile,
thats correct if you look at the system as a standalone entity - but its not. its now being integrated into a package capability with other systems. ie complimentary assets

swerve said:
& has a minimum range of a few hundred km. Excellent early-warning system, but has to be used as a complement to shorter-range, more precise location systems.
as above ;). Hence the US interest in merging JORN capability into other supportive interrogation and tracking systems.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
dioditto said:
The pilots' lives, and the risk of SR-71 ever been shot down is not really the issue.. U2 has been shot down numerous times and it never amount to much political fallout.
my comments had nothing to do with decisions based on pilots lives. Pilots lives were part of the decision matrix - but they weren't the empirical reason. Ferret missions over hot space using manned aircraft were pulled because of risk mitigation issues.

dioditto said:
I think withdrawing the SR-71 from service was not just the risk factor alone. The real factor I consider is the fact that SR-71/U2 and variuos spy plane have accelerated, made the russian/USSR SAM and long range detection technology formidable to the point that, it's detrimental to "prod" them along any further.
You seem to forget mathius rus. a lot of the mythology about the russian SAM capability turned out to be just that - mythology. They were over rated by some margin.

dioditto said:
Since no other fighter or bomber have the capability to fly as fast as SR-71 currently, (although one is planned recently), to prod the russian along that direction and develop a far more sophiscated defense capability than american's simply makes no sense, thus the withdrawl.
no, thats incorrect. the issue was a requirements decision based on risk and reward using manned aircraft for missions that could be better achieved by satellites with a lower resolution. The need for manned reccon is even further diminished with current technology. The "spin" generated about a manned replacement is just that - "spin". A cursory look at technology jumps in the last 3 years alone reinforces that.

dioditto said:
Note: And currently, Russian SAM technology is A GENERATION AHEAD of american.
where? in some areas they have an untested capability - but as the Kh-31/Mh-31 exercise showed under Clinton, the technology being used was sometimes pretty sad. Russian air to air missiles on russian aircraft have had a somewhat ordinary track record. (and this included using ukrainian "contracted" pilots in africa)

all the editorial comments about Bulavas undertaking the aerial equiv of a "crazy ivan" to avoid interception systems is about as concrete as claims about their 5th Gen aircraft. (which as of 2 days ago had their funding cut even further.) I'd predict that the Chinese will actually overtake the Russians in a number of technology paths within 5-7 years.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
gf0012-aust said:
The only agreement we have has only recently been signed. Thats a co-development agreement with the US as they are interested in merging JORN capability into existing US global tracking capability. We do however, play an active role in sharing out data where approp.

The system is not available for export.
Sorry, I was being facetious. Dissemination of such technology outside of extremely trusted allies would be a very poor move.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Perhaps I'm on my own on this one, but I'm always warry of any source that singularly relies on Wikipedia...
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Izzy1 said:
Perhaps I'm on my own on this one, but I'm always warry of any source that singularly relies on Wikipedia...
If you're referring to my use of Wiki, then that was not what I mean by "what can be found on the net." However, if what Wiki says seems correct, and it contains what you intended to write anyway, then it is good to use it at is boiled down and easy for everyone to read. Thus not ending in technobabble.

So I am also wary of Wiki, but it can be used... with caution...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Izzy1 said:
Perhaps I'm on my own on this one, but I'm always warry of any source that singularly relies on Wikipedia...
No, you're not on your own. I don't place much faith on any stuff coming out of Wikipedia unless they're credentialed and identifiable sources.

anyone can post anything. I once posted some stuff up that was absolutely rubbish to see how long it would be before anyone edited it. No one ever did for over 3 months. I ended up changing it myself as my conscience took hold of me. ;)

Wikipedia is not the mark of a credible argument as its easily manipulated by anyone with a "fan club" mentality as well as genuine researchers.

I stick to trade sources and sites.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Sorry Grand Danois, didn't mean it to sound if I was getting at you.

I have to agree with GF and yourself in regards to its use with caution.
 

Awang se

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
i wonder if russian weapon systems bought under the Clinton admin was actually a real deal. I heard that many of them show a sign of tempering.

Several russian systems like S-300 and R-73 were considered more advance then their western counterparts until quite recently.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Izzy1 said:
Sorry Grand Danois, didn't mean it to sound if I was getting at you.

I have to agree with GF and yourself in regards to its use with caution.
No, no. You weren't getting at me. I just wanted to explain why I used Wiki.
 

abramsteve

New Member
I have to admit that my knowledge of stealth technology is basicaly limitted to in-acurate F-117 models from the early 90s :) so I have a few questions.

Are the stealth qualtities of the F-22 equal to or better than the F-117? Or is that a question Im not likely to get an answer to? ;)

The other was: Can a stealth aircraft be tracked whilst relying purley on tactical and navigation data from another source ala a F-22 beign guided to a target by an orbiting AWACS?
 

LancerMc

New Member
In the latest new from this website, Ukraine denies ever selling new advance radar to Iran, and that the president would deny the sale of any a such equipment as well.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
abramsteve said:
I have to admit that my knowledge of stealth technology is basicaly limitted to in-acurate F-117 models from the early 90s :) so I have a few questions.

Are the stealth qualtities of the F-22 equal to or better than the F-117? Or is that a question Im not likely to get an answer to? ;)
Considering that US stealth technology has gone trough several generations it would be a safe assumption to say that the LO is much better on the F-22.

abramsteve said:
The other was: Can a stealth aircraft be tracked whilst relying purley on tactical and navigation data from another source ala a F-22 beign guided to a target by an orbiting AWACS?
I wouldn't know if it can be tracked (that is what this thread is about). My laymans guess is it would be pretty hard to locate a stealth aircraft scanning for data links. But the stealth aircraft can get an air picture good enough to engage air targets through CEC.

CEC distributes radar measurement data (not tracks) from each CEC unit to all other CEC units. Units communicate in pairs during short transmit/receive periods through a narrow directional signal. Data is thus sent across the net in near real time and communication is virtually jam-proof. CEC units are able to engage on the basis of CEC composite tracks, even when the firing unit does not hold the track, because CEC provides precision gridlock and fire-control quality tracks.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/cec.htm
Ground targets can also be dynamically targeted from sources off the stealth aircraft. So it doesn't need to have its radar on.
 

abramsteve

New Member
Hmm interesting, thanks for that!

Im glad that technology has for once allowed a modern aircraft to be better looking than an older one! ;)
 

dioditto

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
You seem to forget mathius rus. a lot of the mythology about the russian SAM capability turned out to be just that - mythology. They were over rated by some margin.
Myth? Are u sure?
The S-300 and now S-400 has the range that far exceed the patriot pac3.
 
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