Australian LHDs?

[Wooki]

I beg to differ. From the Australian Strategic Policy Institute's website:
http://www.aspi.org.au/aspi_shipbuilding/chapter2.html

Australlan Submarine Corp. in Osborne, South Australia:
5,000 tonne shiplift, length 80 metres, width 20 metres.
Significant improvement needed to build large ship modules or ships. Adjacent land is available for expansion.

Tenix: Williamstown, Victoria:
Two 6,000 tonne building slipways. graving dock effective length is 145 metres.
Could build large ship modules, but not large ships. Major infrastructure changes necessary for assembly of large ships.
Tenix: Western Australia:
8,000 tonne shiplift, length 123 metres, width 23 metres.
Additional hardstand berths necessary for ship assembly. Could build large ship modules. A new industrial facility being developed nearby may provide large ship assembly capability.

ADI: Newcastle, NSW:
Could build large ship modules, not suitable for large ship assembly.
ADI: Sydney, NSW:
Could construct large ship modules. Assembly of large ship at Capt. Cook Dock, but this would disrupt repair and maintenance dockings.

Forgas: Newcastle, NSW
15,000 tonne capacity floating dock.
Length 180 metres, width 33 metres
Could build large ship modules, not suitable for LHD assembly.
Forgas: Brisbane, Queensland:
85,000 tonne capacity drydock. Not suitable for any ship or module constuction or assembly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both LHD designs are over 200 metres in length. Only Capt. Cook Dock capable of assembly of the LHD.
Therefore, two of the three if not all three Australian bidders will have to develop a larger assembly dock or lift to build the two LHDs. Added infrastructure costs on top of actual construçtion costs.

I suggest having foreign shipyards build the ships, the Capt. Cook Dock and the Forgas drydock are capable of maintaining the vessels without any significant infrastructure costs included.

Newcastle,IIRC, has oodles of land to build a small ship (<40000 tons) like an LHD.

Rail it and the use a floating syncro-lift, which is basically a large semi submersible barge floating in a big pond or drydock next to the river. How do you get to the river if you use a pond? You break the earth wall between the pond and the river. All very simple and well within the big dam building and mining know-how that Australia has.

Same goes for Brisbane. Adelaide has a very shallow river. Fremantle? Don't know and Melbourne is a bit of a mystery to me.

Anyway, I think it would be poor form if the ships were not built in Oz.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I beg to differ. From the Australian Strategic Policy Institute's website:
http://www.aspi.org.au/aspi_shipbuilding/chapter2.html

Australian Submarine Corp. in Osborne, South Australia
5,000 tonne shiplift, length 80 metres, width 20 metres.
Significant improvement needed to build large ship modules or ships. Adjacent land is available for expansion.

Tenix: Williamstown, Victoria
Two 6,000 tonne building slipways. graving dock effective length is 145 metres.
Could build large ship modules, but not large ships. Major infrastructure changes necessary for assembly of large ships.
Tenix: Western Australia
8,000 tonne shiplift, length 123 metres, width 23 metres.
Additional hardstand berths necessary for ship assembly. Could build large ship modules. A new industrial facility being developed nearby may provide large ship assembly capability.

ADI: Newcastle, NSW
Could build large ship modules, not suitable for large ship assembly.
ADI: Sydney, NSW
Could construct large ship modules. Assembly of large ship at Capt. Cook Dock, but this would disrupt repair and maintenance dockings.

Forgas: Newcastle, NSW
15,000 tonne capacity floating dock.
Length 180 metres, width 33 metres
Could build large ship modules, not suitable for LHD assembly.
Forgas: Brisbane, Queensland
85,000 tonne capacity drydock. Not suitable for any ship or module constuction or assembly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both LHD designs are over 200 metres in length. Only Capt. Cook Dock capable of assembly of the LHD.
Therefore, two of the three if not all three Australian bidders will have to develop a larger assembly dock or lift to build the two LHDs. Added infrastructure costs on top of actual construçtion costs.

I suggest having foreign shipyards build the ships, the Capt. Cook Dock and the Forgas drydock are capable of maintaining the vessels without any significant infrastructure costs included.

That report is significantly our of date, Toby. ASC has already been contracted to undergo a major expansion due to the AWD build contract being awarded to it. Other infrastructure would be upgraded for the LPH contract. I don't see any problems building these ships in Australia, provided it can be done cheaply enough.

 

[rossfrb_1]

http://www.marinetalk.com/articles-marine-companies/art/Fresh-90m-Shipbuilding-Investment-xxx000101941IN.html


A $90 million investment in Western Australia's shipbuilding
facilities could generate billions of dollars for the state economy,
according to Australian sources. The funding boost for the Australian
Marine Complex (AMC) at Henderson in southern Perth is expected to
create thousands of jobs. The project would see the installation of
additional common-use infrastructure, including a floating dock and
rail transfer system to launch and retrieve large ships, and an
extension and upgrade of the existing wharves.

The project would support naval repair and maintenance work already
undertaken at the AMC, and would enhance prospects of future naval
ship construction, repair and maintenance work for the state.
It is also expected to provide a substantial boost to WA's bid
for the $2 billion Amphibious Vessel project for the Australian
Defence Force, which might create up to 2000 highly technical
and manufacturing-based jobs.

The AMC has been developed to facilitate and enhance the opportunities
created by the clustering of the marine, defence and resource based industries.
Home to the largest marine industry in Australia, Western Australia
has established international credentials for repair, maintenance and
construction of quality ships and infrastructure for offshore oil and
gas production, plus a broad range of world-class marine services.
Cockburn Sound is also haven to Australia's naval defence capability
for the Indian Ocean Region.

 

[Sea Dog]

Currently there are many options for a "smaller" LHD (vs the large WASP class) that are available for Aus. The final issue is going to revolve around costs, as always. But not only the cost of the unit, but also of the air group embarked.

The idea of just putting the army helos onboard and VOILA!, we have a naval assault group is ludicrous.


Here's the Spanish "Strategic Projection Ship":

 

[rossfrb_1]

Here's a link to a current article relating to the LHDs in question. It's a little long so I've just included a few pargraphs as a taster.

http://www.yaffa.com.au/defence/current/12-111.htm

Some LHD issues for consideration
Protecting the Navy's new LHDs will be vital: as the equivalent of capital ships they will be prime targets. However, achieving this may be slightly less expensive than many had once thought - and the required 'smarts' reside in Australia.
By Tom Muir | Canberra
While three Australian shipbuilders ponder which of two LHD ship designers they should select in their tenders for the ship construction contract next April, or whether they should invest heavily in bid options that incorporate both designs, such weighty deliberations seem a far cry indeed from what combat systems the LHDs should have and what self protection systems they will require.
But things are moving fast where the amphibious ships' project is concerned. The three shipbuilders, ADI, Austal and Tenix, had until the end of 2005 to mull over whether they should offer the 27,000 tonne Spanish Navantia design, or the 22,000 tonne French Armaris Mistral, or even whether they should hedge their bets and include both designs in their bids. But cost is a big issue with a $2bn estimated cost for two ships. In the previous RFQ exercise the Australian candidate shipbuilders went overboard on costs (compared to those prepared by the two design houses) principally because they weren't au fait with the ship designs.........



cheers
rb

 

[Aussie Digger]

Currently there are many options for a "smaller" LHD (vs the large WASP class) that are available for Aus. The final issue is going to revolve around costs, as always. But not only the cost of the unit, but also of the air group embarked.

The idea of just putting the army helos onboard and VOILA!, we have a naval assault group is ludicrous.


Here's the Spanish "Strategic Projection Ship":

[URL="http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/5310/bps3av.jpg"]http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/5310/bps3av.jpg[/URL]

[URL="http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/4724/bps22nn.jpg"]http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/4724/bps22nn.jpg[/URL]

The ships are likely to operate RAN Naval helo's at various times, but these probably won't be used for transport purposes (unless the rumoured Sea King replacement goes head, ie: additional MRH90's). The Army is investing in new marinised MRH-90's which are intended to be used off these vessels, along with Tiger ARH's and possibly Chinooks (though probably only for short periods due to lack of marinisation).

Unfortunately we don't have the budget to purchase a dedicated airgroup for these vessels. We currently use Army Blackhawks off our LPA's (they can carry 4 helo's each) and this has proved reasonably successful. The increased capacity of the LPD's and the better helo we have chosen to operate off them, should increase our capability significantly.

It is also somewhat possible that RAAF may purchase a number of F-35B's at some point down the track too. These would then be used to provide some air defence/strike capability in support of RAN operations and would be a massive boost for us. These too would be operated from the LPA's. It is more likely that we would acquire these, if we choose the Spanish Navantia design, which is being designed specifically with fixed wing STOVL ops in mind (ie: the ski jump).

On top of this, current RAN Seahawk and Seasprite helo's are having radar upgrades performed to give them "limited" Airborne early warning capabilities, with them eventually being "networked" with the ships they are operating from, this too will provide a useful capability enhancement.

Overall RAN capabilities, though still relatively limited, are coming along nicely, IMHO.

 

[Supe]

Just on the Spanish design. I wonder if the RAN version will omit the jump ramp? Going by the pic, that would allow for another slot for a helicopter. IMO, I see it as highly unlikely that F-35B's will be purchased, not when there is talk of a reduction of JSF buys due cost blowouts.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Just on the Spanish design. I wonder if the RAN version will omit the jump ramp? Going by the pic, that would allow for another slot for a helicopter. IMO, I see it as highly unlikely that F-35B's will be purchased, not when there is talk of a reduction of JSF buys due cost blowouts.

There's a lot of things still up in the air, over most of the ADF's "major" defence acquisitions still to come. It'll take another 2-3 years for most of the solutions/decisions to these problems to be announced. We'll just have to be patient I guess...

 

[Supe]

Without the F35B's the LHD's will still be a potent asset and set to be more so with UAV technology maturing. Does the design tender specify a dedicated aviation space belowdeck?

Aus Gov recently took in hand FedSat and hopefully with lessons learned and growth in expertise gained in using this satellite, will realise a much needed capability and eventually dedicated defence related satellite. A marriage of UAV and dedicated defence Sat = quantum leap in ADF capabilities?

 

[Sea Dog]

Without the F35B's the LHD's will still be a potent asset and set to be more so with UAV technology maturing. Does the design tender specify a dedicated aviation space belowdeck?

Aus Gov recently took in hand FedSat and hopefully with lessons learned and growth in expertise gained in using this satellite, will realise a much needed capability and eventually dedicated defence related satellite. A marriage of UAV and dedicated defence Sat = quantum leap in ADF capabilities?

I think it's asking too much of the Australian taxpayer to fund two different versions of the same fighter. Don't hold your breath for an F35B purchase. Be happy with the LHD, helos, aerial tankers, F35, C-17, M1's, etc., etc.
:dance

 

[Cootamundra]

I think it's asking too much of the Australian taxpayer to fund two different versions of the same fighter. Don't hold your breath for an F35B purchase. Be happy with the LHD, helos, aerial tankers, F35, C-17, M1's, etc., etc.
:dance

I don't. I think the f-35b will be a latter purchase, the new Strat Projection ships are being built for amphib and offensive air operations.

I believe that the RAN and ADF have some unspoken plans and procuring the B model maybe part of that, to support this view you nly have to witness the overall doctrine shift that we are seeing within the ADF and Government. DOA is dead and expeditionary warfare seems to be in vogue. Howard, Hill and in all likelyhood new DefMin Nelson all seem to be willing to send the ADF off o/s. The new Strat Projection ships, the AWD, the M1's the new arty, larger airlift etc etc all support this change in view. The taxpayer will not really be involved in this adjustment in policy unless of course the Libs get voted out and personally I don't see Lab getting their act together in the near future. Meanwhile F-35b procurement will be in various ADF HQ procurement plans.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I don't. I think the f-35b will be a latter purchase, the new Strat Projection ships are being built for amphib and offensive air operations.

I believe that the RAN and ADF have some unspoken plans and procuring the B model maybe part of that, to support this view you nly have to witness the overall doctrine shift that we are seeing within the ADF and Government. DOA is dead and expeditionary warfare seems to be in vogue. Howard, Hill and in all likelyhood new DefMin Nelson all seem to be willing to send the ADF off o/s. The new Strat Projection ships, the AWD, the M1's the new arty, larger airlift etc etc all support this change in view. The taxpayer will not really be involved in this adjustment in policy unless of course the Libs get voted out and personally I don't see Lab getting their act together in the near future. Meanwhile F-35b procurement will be in various ADF HQ procurement plans.

AIR 6000 is a multi-phased project, all 100 ever were never going to be purchased staright off the cuff anyway. By the time phase 3 of AIR 6000 comes aroun (2017 - 2018) it may well be very feasible to purchase a squadron's worth of F-35B's. Government any certainly RAAF haven't ruled it out. I wouldn't either...

 

[Cootamundra]

AD - just as I said! I'm not sure Sea Dog know's what he's talking about re; the Aussie Taxpayer nor the ADF's potential procurement decisions.

Due respect to Messur Sea Dog of course ;-0

Cheers, Coota

 

[Sea Dog]

AD - just as I said! I'm not sure Sea Dog know's what he's talking about re; the Aussie Taxpayer nor the ADF's potential procurement decisions.

Due respect to Messur Sea Dog of course ;-0

Cheers, Coota

Nah, I think I know. I don't see AUS having 3 sq of one model and 1 sq of another. No F-35B's for AUS. Just the AF version.

 

[Sea Toby]

I agree with Sea Dog, I don't see any Australian government purchasing the F-35Bs in the near future. However, say ten years after the ships are built, and after all of the F-35s enter Air Force service, who knows what a future Australian government will or won't do twenty years from now?

I noticed that ADI has joined with Aramis and will be offering the Mistral, and Tenix has joined with Navantia and will be offering the Spanish ship. While I prefer the Spanish ship, it's a bit larger, for the right price I would purchase the French Mistral, it appears it will meet the requirements.

Either ship design will be an asset for the Australian Defence Forces. I have a gut feeling the choice will be decided upon price this time.

 

[Cootamundra]

Nah, I think I know. I don't see AUS having 3 sq of one model and 1 sq of another. No F-35B's for AUS. Just the AF version.

How do you know? Are you just trying to get a wind up or do you actually have something to contribute? Feel free to post sources or express an opinion that can be backed up. You live in DC right? So how the hell would you know what the ADF has planned re; F-35. Do you work for the ADF? Do you work on ther F-35 program? Probably a big NO on both counts....come onnfloorl:

 

[alexsa]

Nah, I think I know. I don't see AUS having 3 sq of one model and 1 sq of another. No F-35B's for AUS. Just the AF version.

I don’t think this is valid argument.

Given the F-35was designed around the philosophy of maximum commonality between models to reduce the cost of operating each I don’t see this as an issue. Operating two completely different types of jet would have significant cost implications but it is not such a problem for the JSF derivitives. The level of commonality between the f-35A and F-35B is very high and purchasing some of both make a lot of sense particularly with a platform like the LHD.

Best regards
Alexsa

 

[Sea Dog]

How do you know? Are you just trying to get a wind up or do you actually have something to contribute? Feel free to post sources or express an opinion that can be backed up. You live in DC right? So how the hell would you know what the ADF has planned re; F-35. Do you work for the ADF? Do you work on ther F-35 program? Probably a big NO on both counts....come onnfloorl:

Oy boy! 10 years from today you're going to wake up and realize that there are no F35B's on the flightline at Williamstown-and that we won't be sending any on the way. In the meantime do something useful like counting wallaburragas, jirimumbas, chazzwozzers, or whatever the hell you call the critters over there. :nutkick

 

[alexsa]

Oy boy! 10 years from today you're going to wake up and realize that there are no F35B's on the flightline at Williamstown-and that we won't be sending any on the way. In the meantime do something useful like counting wallaburragas, jirimumbas, chazzwozzers, or whatever the hell you call the critters over there. :nutkick

Actually in 10 years we amy only just have the full outfit of the 'first batch' of F-35A in Australia so you prediction may be correct in that sense. However, why is it so improbable that we would purchse F-35B in a later batch? If they built the LHD with a ski ramp that should be a pretty good indicator that it is possible, and to be bluntly honest they would be a bit short sighted if they don't.

Regards
Alexsa

P.S: If F-35B are to go solely on ships thye would be at Nowra not Williamstown in any case.

 

[Supe]

Alexsa: If the Spanish ship is chosen, I reckon we might see the 'jump ramp' omitted to free up space for an extra helo spot.