Australian LHDs?

[PhillTaj]

Hello,

I've been wondering what many of the aussies here think of the RAN's LHD program? I seem to recall that the French won the initial stage am I correct? Is the design an enhanced version of the Mistral? Will it embark STOVL aircraft?

Sorry for the questions, just curious...havent heard much about the program for a few months now.

Most importantly, what are the reactions of Australia's allies and competitors in the region? I understand the vessels are being touted as pure over the horizon landing ships, but how would your neighbors react to say, a flight of 8 F-35b's on each hull?

Thanks.

 

[seantheaussie]

I've been wondering what many of the aussies here think of the RAN's LHD program?

I don't hate the $2billion for LHD. I hate $6 billion for escorts

I seem to recall that the French won the initial stage am I correct?

Still undecided mod mistral OR mod navantia strategic projection ship

Will it embark STOVL aircraft?

Undecided. Won't know till F-35 buy finalised

Most importantly, what are the reactions of Australia's allies and competitors in the region? I understand the vessels are being touted as pure over the horizon landing ships, but how would your neighbors react to say, a flight of 8 F-35b's on each hull?

Indonesia is within range of land based F-111 & air to air refueled F-18 so some anti Aussie Indonesians will complain about a stovl capability but they won't mean it.

 

[Aussie Digger]

The Navy is still assessing it's options, but I believed the Spanish ship is favoured within RAN due to it's larger capacity. Pretty much all major project approvals are now on hold though, pending the outcome of a new strategic policy due out any time now.

This coming Monday, is supposedly a day to watch for Australian Defence matters though...

 

[cherry]

This coming Monday, is supposedly a day to watch for Australian Defence matters though...

Can you elaborate on this? Is this the release of the new Defence Strategic Policy and/or new Army structure, or is there something else on the horizon?

 

[pepsi]

There was a report out recently (according to some news article i read) about the government talking about more defence spending due to terrorism etc etc, is that part of whatever is happening Monday?

 

[rossfrb_1]

Hello,

I've been wondering what many of the aussies here think of the RAN's LHD program? I seem to recall that the French won the initial stage am I correct? Is the design an enhanced version of the Mistral? Will it embark STOVL aircraft?

Most importantly, what are the reactions of Australia's allies and competitors in the region? I understand the vessels are being touted as pure over the horizon landing ships, but how would your neighbors react to say, a flight of 8 F-35b's on each hull?

Thanks.

I too have read that the larger Spanish design is preferred by the RAN.
There is currently a lot of wrangling going on to try and get em built in Australia, however the government is threatening to go overseas if it can't get 'value for money', in an effort to get Australian defence industries to submit lower quotes for the build.
Re STOVL - the defence minister Hill has previously stated that Australia is NOT considering the F35B, however rumours continue to circulate that the F35B may very well be under consideration. Whether this supposed downplay of interest in STOVL capability is due to domestic or international political sensitivities I don't know. However, just prior to the Falklands war, Australia was lined up to buy the Invincible and some Harriers from the RN, so this isn't an entirely new concept that is likely to surprise our 'neighbours'.
cheers
rb

 

[Aussie Digger]

Can you elaborate on this? Is this the release of the new Defence Strategic Policy and/or new Army structure, or is there something else on the horizon?

Supposedly the new approved Army changes are to be publicly announced, however the Strategic Update is due to be announced soon too. Perhaps they might do both at the same time?

I don't know anymore about that that anyone else however...

 

[Crusader2000]

I too have read that the larger Spanish design is preferred by the RAN.
There is currently a lot of wrangling going on to try and get em built in Australia, however the government is threatening to go overseas if it can't get 'value for money', in an effort to get Australian defence industries to submit lower quotes for the build.
Re STOVL - the defence minister Hill has previously stated that Australia is NOT considering the F35B, however rumours continue to circulate that the F35B may very well be under consideration. Whether this supposed downplay of interest in STOVL capability is due to domestic or international political sensitivities I don't know. However, just prior to the Falklands war, Australia was lined up to buy the Invincible and some Harriers from the RN, so this isn't an entirely new concept that is likely to surprise our 'neighbours'.
cheers
rb

Well, if Australia selects the American Design (i.e. Cox & Gibbs) for the AWD's. It would only be logical to have Spain to win with the LHD's.................Hey, politics is politics!

 

[Aussie Digger]

The Navy is still assessing it's options, but I believed the Spanish ship is favoured within RAN due to it's larger capacity. Pretty much all major project approvals are now on hold though, pending the outcome of a new strategic policy due out any time now.

This coming Monday, is supposedly a day to watch for Australian Defence matters though...

Actually have a look at the ADF's website on Thursday. THAT's when most of the surprises are going to be announced...

 

[Aussie Digger]

The Navy is still assessing it's options, but I believed the Spanish ship is favoured within RAN due to it's larger capacity. Pretty much all major project approvals are now on hold though, pending the outcome of a new strategic policy due out any time now.

This coming Monday, is supposedly a day to watch for Australian Defence matters though...

Actually have a look at the ADF's website on Thursday. THAT's when most of the surprises are going to be announced...

 

[Aussie Digger]

The Navy is still assessing it's options, but I believed the Spanish ship is favoured within RAN due to it's larger capacity. Pretty much all major project approvals are now on hold though, pending the outcome of a new strategic policy due out any time now.

This coming Monday, is supposedly a day to watch for Australian Defence matters though...

Actually have a look at the ADF's website on Thursday. THAT's when most of the surprises are going to be announced...

 

[PhillTaj]

Actually have a look at the ADF's website on Thursday. THAT's when most of the surprises are going to be announced...

What exactly do you think they'll annonce? Any guesses?

 

[Aussie Digger]

The "strategic update" will be a document outlining what the Government thinks will be the likely threats the ADF will have to contend with over the next 5-10 years. From this it will be fairly easy to tell the sorts of capabilities the ADF will requiring in coming years...

An updated Defence Capability plan is then expected in January/Februry 2006, to exactly outline what capabilities the ADF can expect over the next 10 years and the level of funding it will have to acquire these capabilities.

This is probably the wrong thread, but I'd expect this strategic update will heavily focus on land and aviation capabilities, the RAN is pretty well sorted for the time being and I doubt will receive much extra this time around...

In particular the Government is expected to announce the creation of an additional regular mechanised infantry battalion for the Australian Army, additional troops to fill out "hollowness" within existing units and a new structure for Army's infantry battalions. Some additional army capabilties might also be announced, but most probably saved for the Capabilities document, I outlined earlier...

 

[pepsi]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17567137-421,00.html

There is a news report AD, it mentions some navy things, i don't really trust news.com.au too much for info though so i guess we will see what the review covers tomorrow when its released

 

[Sea Toby]

I don't see the infrastructure in place in Australia to build the LHD. Now that Garden Island's Captain Cook's dock is privately held, its busy with many commerical drydockings. The other large drydock doesn't have the land nearby to build ships. If the Australian government does decide to build in Australia, they'll will have to pay for a large drydock to build it in. While this expense isn't huge, I think its more than enough to have the LHDs built in Spain or France.

 

[knightrider4]

I believe that there is talk of rationalising all naval shipbuilding at ASC'S site at Adelaide although I obviously cant confirm this.

 

[Cootamundra]

I believe that there is talk of rationalising all naval shipbuilding at ASC'S site at Adelaide although I obviously cant confirm this.

That would be a surprise to me. I'm sure ADI, Tenix and Austal would have something to say about that. ASC will not be in a position to build the AWDs and the Amphibs. I'm hoping that Tenix will get their act together, otherwise I reckon the Amphibs may get built O/S.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I don't see the infrastructure in place in Australia to build the LHD. Now that Garden Island's Captain Cook's dock is privately held, its busy with many commerical drydockings. The other large drydock doesn't have the land nearby to build ships. If the Australian government does decide to build in Australia, they'll will have to pay for a large drydock to build it in. While this expense isn't huge, I think its more than enough to have the LHDs built in Spain or France.

You might need to look a bit harder mate. EVERY state in Australia is bidding on this contract and most states have the capacity available to build the majority of the ships themselves, with only relatively minor subcontracting to be conducted by other states. The issue of having the necessary facilities to build them in Australia is not the problem. We've got plenty. It's whether we can afford to build them here, due to labor costs etc, that will be the deciding factor...

 

[Cootamundra]

It's whether we can afford to build them here, due to labor costs etc, that will be the deciding factor...

That is the problem AD, the ship building industry really need to put their best forward on this one, otherwise we'll get the ships built in Spain. Hell, no reason why we couldn't get the hulls built in Sth Korea and then kit them out with all their combat systems and other kit here in Aus.

 

[Sea Toby]

I beg to differ. From the Australian Strategic Policy Institute's website:
http://www.aspi.org.au/aspi_shipbuilding/chapter2.html

Australian Submarine Corp. in Osborne, South Australia
5,000 tonne shiplift, length 80 metres, width 20 metres.
Significant improvement needed to build large ship modules or ships. Adjacent land is available for expansion.

Tenix: Williamstown, Victoria
Two 6,000 tonne building slipways. graving dock effective length is 145 metres.
Could build large ship modules, but not large ships. Major infrastructure changes necessary for assembly of large ships.
Tenix: Western Australia
8,000 tonne shiplift, length 123 metres, width 23 metres.
Additional hardstand berths necessary for ship assembly. Could build large ship modules. A new industrial facility being developed nearby may provide large ship assembly capability.

ADI: Newcastle, NSW
Could build large ship modules, not suitable for large ship assembly.
ADI: Sydney, NSW
Could construct large ship modules. Assembly of large ship at Capt. Cook Dock, but this would disrupt repair and maintenance dockings.

Forgas: Newcastle, NSW
15,000 tonne capacity floating dock.
Length 180 metres, width 33 metres
Could build large ship modules, not suitable for LHD assembly.
Forgas: Brisbane, Queensland
85,000 tonne capacity drydock. Not suitable for any ship or module constuction or assembly.

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Both LHD designs are over 200 metres in length. Only Capt. Cook Dock capable of assembly of the LHD.
Therefore, two of the three if not all three Australian bidders will have to develop a larger assembly dock or lift to build the two LHDs. Added infrastructure costs on top of actual construçtion costs.

I suggest having foreign shipyards build the ships, the Capt. Cook Dock and the Forgas drydock are capable of maintaining the vessels without any significant infrastructure costs included.