Australian Army Force Enhancements

[cherry]

does anyone actually know how many of each variant of ASLAV the ADF have? I have been trying to find out how many ASLAV-25 we have but cant find an answer anywhere?

Do you think that the M113 upgrade shoud involve scrapping the 12.7mm gun and installing a 25mm bushmaster weapon instead?

 

[cherry]

Exactly how many of each variant of ASLAV do the ADF have? I have been trying to find out the numbers for quite a while now but cannot seem to find an answer? Do you think ADF will purchase something along the lines of HIMARS to compliment the new SPH for Land 17?

 

[Aussie Digger]

Cherry, the Australian Army will (when all the Phase 2 ASLAV's are upgraded and rolled out) operate 257 "Phase 3" ASLAV's. These ASLAV's are primarily operated by the 2nd Cavalry Regiment (1 Squadron out of 3 is still equipped with phase 2 ASLAV's) and the 2/14 Light Horse (Recon) Regiment (2 Squadrons out of 3) are yet to be equipped with ASLAV.

The remaining squadrons within 2 Cav and 2/14LH will be equipped fully with ASLAV's by the end of 2005. The School of Armour also operates a significant number of ASLAV's. I'm not sure of the breakdown of the individual numbers of each variant, however the ASLAV-25 is the predominant vehicle within the ASLAV fleet.

I agree that the 12.7mm guns should not be the sole weapon on the upgraded M113. They should at least be integrated with 40mm Automatic Grenade Launchers, just as the ASLAV PC's will be shortly...

A better (and realistic) option in my book would be to relegate the 12.7mm QCB Machine Guns to "support" vehicles (command vehicles, fitters tracks etc) and equip the M113AS3/4 with the turret from the ASLAV and the same 25mm M242 Bushmaster gun as the ASLAV. The 12.7mm gun won't provide sufficient firepower in coming years, particularly when the vehicle may have to be used against other IFV's, IMHO.

For others info reading this, Australia's current M113's are fitted with a Vietnam era T-50 turret mounting an 12.7mm QCB heavy machine gun and a 7.62mm machine fire over open sights.

The new upgrade program is replacing the current turret with a new (Electrically driven) one fitted with the "new" 12.7mm QCB (which is already IN the M113's in most units) and a day/night passive sighting system and a computerised fire control system. The only advantage in this upgrade is the engagement speed and accuracy of the weapon system fitted. It will NOT provide a firepower increase, despite this being a stated goal of the upgrade.

How can removing a weapon system INCREASE the systems firepower? The same way removing the F-111 from the RAAF's order of battle will increase our Strike power I suppose...

As to the HIMARS question. It'd be nice and I can guarantee the Army (and the Royal Regiment of Australian Artillery in particular) would LOVE the HIMARS system. Unfortunately I saw a briefing on Australia's future firepower options a couple of years back. HIMARS was included on the list (as were new 81mm mortars, 120mm self-propelled mortars, new self-propelled guns and new direct fire weapons) but crossed through it were 2 diagonal lines and the word "NO" written across it in large yellow letters.

The adjutant of my Unit who gave the briefing was asked about that, and it was stated that there was practically no chance of the Australian Army EVER acquiring HIMARS or MLRS...

 

[cherry]

If the ADF aren't going to bring the Army into the 21st century by purchasing something along the lines as HIMARS, then what the hell are they going to spend $600-$750 million on for Land 17? Surely a mix of new platforms including 155mm SPH, refurbished 105mm howitzer, a SP mortar and a modern, precise missile system (which most modern western countries have in their inventories) such as HIMARS would be the sensible thing to truely modernise our forces. We have only a small army and we need smart and accurate weaponry. Will SPH and bandaged towed howitzers suffice for our so-called modernised army? I certainly don't think so!

 

[Aussie Digger]

Well Cherry get used to it. Artillery is just another of the capabilities that the Australian Army (AND Defence as a whole) is particularly deficient in. Our new in-direct fire capabilities will be a new 155mm 52 Calibre self propelled howitzer, upgraded 105mm Hamel guns, maybe a new 120mm Mortar and new versions of equipment we already possess such as 81mm mortars.

Yes the Australian Army is too small (AND too hollow) and it possesses very little firepower compared to most Armies. This is the way the Australian Army has always been and will continue to be for the forseeable future. It's ridiculous and would take a severe disaster to arrest, however I can't see it happening. There's simply not enough votes in defence for the politicians to loosen the purse strings...

Maybe if the Australian Task group going to Iraq soon were to be massacred in the 1st few days they were there or something, defence "might" be able to acquire a sufficient level of funding, but nothing short of that would suffice.

 

[Pendekar]

I think the islandish location of Australian mainland is a defence by itself. no armies nearby have the capability to stage an amphibious assault large enough so as to overwhelm the RAN and RAAF. Unless Aussies decide to stage an invasions, i think the politicians decision to strain defence budget is right.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Yeah but the problem is Pendekar, that these same Politicians that are straining the defence budget is then sending our forces overseas to fight in the same conflicts as much larger and better equipped forces. They want to "have their cake and eat it to". They want the political benefits of deploying forces, they simply don't want to pay for the forces to be sufficiently equipped.

As an examply the Australian Army Task Force deploying to Iraq in the next few weeks will be operating mainly from ASLAV vehicles. This force is replacing 1400 Dutch troops which had tracked armoured vehicles and helo gunship and indirect fire support assets to control their area.

The Australian group will only take ASLAV's and Landrover type vehicles, will have no helo support (even Medivac support) at all let alone gunship support, is roughly 1/3rd the size of the Dutch contingent and lacks the firepower the Dutch had in place. The Australian Task Force is however expected to control the same amount of territory!!!

In addition the ASLAV's they will deploy with are not even going to be as capable as the ASLAV's that are part of the Australian SEC-DET team and already deployed in Iraq. They will not have the Bar Armour system to defeat RPG's, they will not have the remote weapon stations that allow the main weapon of the Personnel Carrier variant, to be fired under armour and they will not have the Mk-19 Grenade launchers that the SEC-DET ASLAV-PC's have deployed with. This is soley due to the excessively tight purse strings of the Australian Government.

Once again they are risking Diggers lives simply because they'd rather give money to areas that are likely to provide them with votes at the next election, rather than to those who are going into harms way. It sucks...

 

[Aussie Digger]

HEAVY TANK TRANSPORTERS FOR DEFENCE
​

A $16 million contract has been awarded to an Australian manufacturer to provide 14 Heavy Tank Transporters and associated commercial repair and maintenance support, Defence Minister Robert Hill announced today.
Senator Hill said Defence has awarded the vehicle contract to MAN Military Vehicles Systems (Australia).

The tank transporters will allow the new M1A1 Abram tanks and M88A2 Hercules armoured recovery vehicles to be transported on Australian roads.

Senator Hill said more than half of the contract value will be going directly to Australian industry.

"As part of the contract with MAN, Australian owned and operated Brisbane-based company Drake Trailers will manufacture and supply 14 new heavy duty trailers," Senator Hill said.

"Brisbane-based MAN Automotive Imports will then make final modifications to another 14 imported Prime Movers and will be conducting compliance testing and managing the ongoing repair and maintenance support.

"This is another example of Defence and Australian industry working together to provide new assets for our Defence Force.

"The Heavy Tank Transporter represents an important component of the replacement tank capability."

In October last year, Australia signed an agreement with the United States to buy a new fleet of M1A1 Abrams tanks.

Under this agreement, the US Government will provide 59 refurbished and updated M1A1 Abrams tanks, seven M88 Hercules Armoured Recovery vehicles, advanced gunnery and driver training simulators, training and other support equipment and a range of spares.

The M1A1 Abrams tanks will provide a major increase in capability over the present Leopard tanks. The new tanks will also provide our soldiers with greatly increased levels of protection and survivability on the battlefield.

Delivery of the Heavy Tank Transporters will commence in mid 2006, in time to meet the first tanks when they arrive from the United States.

They will be immediately put to work delivering tanks and recovery vehicles to training establishments and operational units.

Obtained from www.defence.gov.au

It's good to see Australian industry getting some involvement in this project. Even the ammunition for the M1A1's is going to be sourced from overseas...