Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The Australian Defence Force's MRH-90 Taipan helicopters, which were involved in a fatal military training exercise in the Whitsundays, have been retired early. They will not fly again according to this report.
Full story here:
Can't say I will miss them.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Yes its going to be awfully difficult to A) Buy warships without funding and B) Increase fleet units without crew. There is only two options that can logically happen. 1. There is no change to the RAN surface fleet and 2. There is a reduction in MFU and smaller warships ie: corvettes to replace those. Now with Marles publicly stating that the worlds navies are moving to more smaller warships, which we know to be total BS I'll let you all come to your own conclusions. Hell I'll drop in a 3rd option, a vague aspirational statement to the effect that when funding is available we will add x amount of vessels and types so far into the future we will all probably be deceased before any steel is cut.
Why isn’t anyone in the media calling out the smaller ships comment and taking him to task?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It could be argued that, as every attempt to increase MFU numbers, by any government has failed, that the concept of selecting individually smaller, less capable designs, to facilitate increasing numbers, has by default, also failed.

The furthest any government has gotten was the construction of the ANZAC Class. They were meant to be a second tier, nested between a first tier of eight or nine FFGs and or DDGs, and a third tier of missile armed (ESSM/Harpoon), helicopter equipped (the origin of the Super Seasprite acquisition), corvettes.

This fell over before the last ANZACs entered service and the ANZACs became the the core of the fleet, instead of its second string.

Now we have eight aging ANZACs, ordered on the assumption there would be eight or nine destroyers and a dozen or more missile corvettes, serving along side them, serving as the bulk of our fleet. They are masqueradinding as FFGs, supported by three FFGs, masquerading as DDGs.

Imagine instead we had ordered we had ordered six enhanced FFGs then followed them with five or six proper DDGs? No plans for twenty eight to thirty smaller combatants, that would have cost more, just stick to a dozen high end ships, delivered in a continuous build of one new ship every two to three years.

In fact look at it this way. Hobart 202 crew would have been the ideal for the nine FFG/DDG we didn't get, that's 1818, crew plus 163 per ANZAC (1304), and 12 Corbett's at say 70 crew (840) a total of 3962. That's enough for ten Burke's.

Probably the wrong topic for this post.
 
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Morgo

Well-Known Member

Morgo

Well-Known Member
Yes its going to be awfully difficult to A) Buy warships without funding and B) Increase fleet units without crew. There is only two options that can logically happen. 1. There is no change to the RAN surface fleet and 2. There is a reduction in MFU and smaller warships ie: corvettes to replace those. Now with Marles publicly stating that the worlds navies are moving to more smaller warships, which we know to be total BS I'll let you all come to your own conclusions. Hell I'll drop in a 3rd option, a vague aspirational statement to the effect that when funding is available we will add x amount of vessels and types so far into the future we will all probably be deceased before any steel is cut.
This is logically incoherent. The funding follows the decisions, not the other way around. You only account for things in the budget once they’re announced. There’s nothing stopping them from spending more if they want to.

EDIT: Completely agree with your criticism of the “smaller warships” nonsense though. I am hoping (but don’t expect) that Adm Hilarides has corrected this thinking now and everyone will forget Marles ever said it when we announce a proper fleet… but I am probably over optimistic.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
The Australian Defence Force's MRH-90 Taipan helicopters, which were involved in a fatal military training exercise in the Whitsundays, have been retired early. They will not fly again according to this report.
Full story here:
So that's it for Taipan in the ADF.

I wonder if their is a chance to lease a couple of Chinooks from the US while we transition to the Blachawk.

Alternatively there may be a deal in place with Singapore who have a number of Chinooks locally at Oakley.

Or do we go with the flow?


Cheers S
 

knightrider4

Active Member
This is logically incoherent. The funding follows the decisions, not the other way around. You only account for things in the budget once they’re announced. There’s nothing stopping them from spending more if they want to.

EDIT: Completely agree with your criticism of the “smaller warships” nonsense though. I am hoping (but don’t expect) that Adm Hilarides has corrected this thinking now and everyone will forget Marles ever said it when we announce a proper fleet… but I am probably over optimistic.
I don't see how it's logically incoherent but ok. I'll put it like this no money available until sometime in the forward estimates, therefore no money to purchase warships until roughly four years from now. How much money is available who knows the government would not know. Therefore for those expecting the review (public version) sometime next year to somehow come up with an expansion of MFU in the foreseeable future are going to be mightily disappointed. I'll happily stand by my prediction and will be more than happy to be proven wrong, that there will be in my opinion which of course means nothing that there will either be a reduction in Hunter Class FFG, they will remain as is or we will purchase some corvettes. And further to this the only way that I can see the RAN with corvettes is by cutting the numbers of Hunter Class frigates. There is simply no money available.
 
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Morgo

Well-Known Member
I don't see how it's logically incoherent but ok. I'll put it like this no money available until sometime in the forward estimates, therefore no money to purchase warships until roughly four years from now. How much money is available who knows the government would not know. Therefore for those expecting the review (public version) sometime next year to somehow come up with an expansion of MFU in the foreseeable future are going to be mightily disappointed. I'll happily stand by my prediction and will be more than happy to be proven wrong, that there will be in my opinion which of course means nothing that there will either be a reduction in Hunter Class FFG, they will remain as is or we will purchase some corvettes. And further to this the only way that I can see the RAN with corvettes is by cutting the numbers of Hunter Class frigates. There is simply no money available.
Let me try to explain. The way that Government accounting works is that only announced / committed expenditure is included in the forward estimates. To the extent that there isn't a specific line item in the forward estimates for something doesn't mean that there won't be money spent on it. It just means that the Government hasn't committed to the spending yet.

If the Government were to decide tomorrow that we need another 150 HIMARS (and those are available for purchase off the shelf, which they're not, but go with me) then we would suddenly have an additional couple of billion dollars being spent in the period covered by the forward estimates. and the next time they're published (probably the MYEFO later this year) they would include this spending. The fact that it wasn't previously in the forward estimates in no way stops the Government from spending more money if they want to.

And we have the money - we ran a $20bn surplus last year and have a AAA credit rating. But the Government is, for both valid economic and political reasons, being very careful with the Budget position as we have relatively low but growing debt and an economy that is still running far too hot.

Now - that all said - you may be 100% right and all the talk of increasing Defence spend doesn't materialise, or doesn't materialise for more than half a decade. But the fact its not in the forward estimates is not proof of this.

Mods - I appreciate we have been talking about a lot of RAN kit on an Australian Army thread but the concepts are equally applicable.
 

knightrider4

Active Member
Let me try to explain. The way that Government accounting works is that only announced / committed expenditure is included in the forward estimates. To the extent that there isn't a specific line item in the forward estimates for something doesn't mean that there won't be money spent on it. It just means that the Government hasn't committed to the spending yet.

If the Government were to decide tomorrow that we need another 150 HIMARS (and those are available for purchase off the shelf, which they're not, but go with me) then we would suddenly have an additional couple of billion dollars being spent in the period covered by the forward estimates. and the next time they're published (probably the MYEFO later this year) they would include this spending. The fact that it wasn't previously in the forward estimates in no way stops the Government from spending more money if they want to.

And we have the money - we ran a $20bn surplus last year and have a AAA credit rating. But the Government is, for both valid economic and political reasons, being very careful with the Budget position as we have relatively low but growing debt and an economy that is still running far too hot.

Now - that all said - you may be 100% right and all the talk of increasing Defence spend doesn't materialise, or doesn't materialise for more than half a decade. But the fact its not in the forward estimates is not proof of this.

Mods - I appreciate we have been talking about a lot of RAN kit on an Australian Army thread but the concepts are equally applicable.
Thanks for the information looking forward to that increased funding and expanded RAN sounds pretty easy to find that money after all if you really want to.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The big question is what is the ADF going to do for army rotary wing tactical airlift until a suitable number of the Blackhawk Ms arrive? They can't exactly magic up 50 odd helos with the snap of fingers.
 

knightrider4

Active Member
The big question is what is the ADF going to do for army rotary wing tactical airlift until a suitable number of the Blackhawk Ms arrive? They can't exactly magic up 50 odd helos with the snap of fingers.
Now that is a good question that leaves us with 3 blackhawks and 10 chinooks? Not an ideal situation. Can our existing order be sped up? Unlikely. Lets hope we don't have a pressing need for rotary air in the next 12-18 months or its going to look rather embarassing.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
The big question is what is the ADF going to do for army rotary wing tactical airlift until a suitable number of the Blackhawk Ms arrive? They can't exactly magic up 50 odd helos with the snap of fingers.
Maintaining the skills of pilots, aircrew, groundcrew and maintenance personnel for such an extended period will likely be a huge issue. It would be a bit embarrassing to ask New Zealand to allow Australians to train on some of their NH-90s!

Tas
 
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