Australian Army Discussions and Updates

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I have always said, and I stand by it, that at least 1 regt of Hammel 105mm needs to be maintained, even at ARES level.
In mountain terrain, like PNG, Timor type country, in the wet season, SPG and towed 155s are going to be a nightmare. The 105s are easily deployable by Chinook and resup of ammo much easier. 105mm might not be anywhere near as effective as 155, but it's a hell of a lot better than no indirect fire support bar 81mm mortar.
That POV ignores that indirect fires in Army are progressing beyond guns and 81mm mortars.

120mm mortars, loitering munitions, long ranged missiles and rocket artillery are also being added to our force structure, in addition to guns and 81mm mortars.

If we have to add a “real” capability to reserve artillery units, I’d be equipping them with HIMARS.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I actually think it's horses for courses and just because something is bigger it doesn't necessarily always make it better. I still think that there's a place for the 105mm on the battlefield and you don't always need a ginormous bang. Sometimes a big bag will do the job perfectly. Like the Bishop said to the actress, "it's not how big it is that matters, but how you use it."
There is. Dangerously close to the front lines!:D
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
To complement larger calibre guns or for a niche role? A reason some armies still retain them is because they can be underslung by medium lift helicopters but the issue of also air lifting crew, ammo and other things comes into play.
Given, it was 1982, but during the Falklands campaign, the Brits deployed 30 L118's, they could be moved underslung from sea kings, or rolled inside the Chinooks. At the height of their use in those battles, those 30 guns fired 400 rounds per gun per day. That's 12000 rounds of 105mm raining down per day. Pretty handy , easily deployable fire support.
I did not know that we sold all 111 of those guns we had. Even 18 kept in an ARES Regt would have been pretty handy for some scenarios.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
To complement larger calibre guns or for a niche role? A reason some armies still retain them is because they can be underslung by medium lift helicopters but the issue of also air lifting crew, ammo and other things comes into play.
True.

But when you want artillery in a place which heavy armoured vehicles can't get to, what else can you do? You may be able to move crew & ammo in lighter vehicles, able to cross the terrain.

Some will doubtless say that you bomb instead of shelling, but that's not always an option unless you have aircraft carriers on tap.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Out of interest did we sell the old Hammels & M198's or are they in long term storage? Cheers
Would I right in assuming that the Hammels were retired because the army decided that in addition to superior range; a 155mm gun provided much more operational flexibility over a 105mm one?

those 30 guns fired 400 rounds per gun per day. That's 12000 rounds of 105mm raining down per day.
In ''Logistics in the Falklands War: A Case Study in Expeditionary Warfare'' [Privratsky] gives the number of Sea King sorties needed just to deploy a handful of Light guns; plus ammo and crew. It was a lot of sorties.

You may be able to move crew & ammo in lighter vehicles, able to cross the terrain.
In 1982 the investment placed in the Light Gun really paid off. It was deployable in ways that would have been much harder if FH-70s were deployed.
I'm interested to see what the Royal Marines replace their Light Guns with in the future.

That POV ignores that indirect fires in Army are progressing beyond guns and 81mm mortars.

120mm mortars, loitering munitions, long ranged missiles and rocket artillery
In the coming years do you foresee certain armies relying less on arty and more on armed UASs/loitering munitions? UASs/loitering munitions can certainly deliver precision fire but a key problem is that they're highly vulnerable to air defences and fighters. It's also questionable if they can deliver firepower on mass in the way arty can but I suppose MLRSs are available for that.
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Would I right in assuming that the Hammels were retired because the army decided that in addition to superior range; a 155mm gun provided much more operational flexibility over a 105mm one?
Correct and I am guessing they saw little use in spending money on a capability for an extremely niche scenario that is the only one anyone can ever come up with as to why you’d want a 105mm gun instead of a 155mm gun in Australian service.

In ''Logistics in the Falklands War: A Case Study in Expeditionary Warfare'' [Privratsky] gives the number of Sea King sorties needed just to deploy a handful of Light guns; plus ammo and crew. It was a lot of sorties.
Haven’t read it, but I’m going out on a limb here and guess those Sea Kings weren’t delivering 12,000x 105mm rounds per day…

In the coming years do you foresee certain armies relying less on arty and more on armed UASs/loitering munitions? UASs/loitering munitions can certainly deliver precision fire but a key problem is that they're highly vulnerable to air defences and fighters. It's also questionable if they can deliver firepower on mass in the way arty can but I suppose MLRSs are available for that.
Not necessarily, I think massed artillery fires (gun. rocket and missile based) will be the predominant indirect fire support solution for a LONG time to come, in fact with ever increasingly capable IAMDS, I think forces will become even more reliant on large calibre guns, rockets and missiles to go where traditional aircraft can’t and will broadly extend their capability to effective ranges that were once the sole province of well-equipped fixed wing air forces and attack helicopters.

However I do think that indirect fires will also become more dispersed as well as more widely deployed in non-traditional forms, such as loitering munitions, because that is the only way they will survive.

The idea of a fire support base manning 105mm guns in this day and age covering a total of 13k without charge super, is just laughable. The idea we bought them to serve as legitimate artillery support for an Army being designed as a ‘Defence of Australia’ based force in the mid-late 80’s is equally laughable. We bought them because they were a cheap, straight-forward one for one replacement for our earlier M2A2 Vietnam era guns where fire support bases and almost no prospect of counter-battery fire was the prevailing way of doing things, at that time. Not because they were a realistic capability option when your whole Army is being designed apparently to fight outback Australia based 4 man teams of Kamarians / Musorians, mounted in soft-skinned vehicles...

A Defendtex 40mm drone outranges this battery, puts the guns at severe operational risk given it’s dual-role ISR / attack mission and can be carried by every soldier mounting a 40mm under-barrel grenade launcher, or via remote launch capability so your humans are even better protected, being nowhere near the launch site.

How’s that for deployability? A hell of a lot better than man-handling a supposedly ‘light’ gun (still 1.8t+).
 
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old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Correct and I am guessing they saw little use in spending money on a capability for an extremely niche scenario that is the only one anyone can ever come up with as to why you’d want a 105mm gun instead of a 155mm gun in Australian service.



Haven’t read it, but I’m going out on a limb here and guess those Sea Kings weren’t delivering 12,000x 105mm rounds per day…



Not necessarily, I think massed artillery fires (gun. rocket and missile based) will be the predominant indirect fire support solution for a LONG time to come, in fact with ever increasingly capable IAMDS, I think forces will become even more reliant on large calibre guns, rockets and missiles to go where traditional aircraft can’t and will broadly extend their capability to effective ranges that were once the sole province of well-equipped fixed wing air forces and attack helicopters.

However I do think that indirect fires will also become more dispersed as well as more widely deployed in non-traditional forms, such as loitering munitions, because that is the only way they will survive.

The idea of a fire support base manning 105mm guns in this day and age covering a total of 13k without charge super, is just laughable. The idea we bought them to serve as legitimate artillery support for an Army being designed as a ‘Defence of Australia’ based force in the mid-late 80’s is equally laughable. We bought them because they were a cheap, straight-forward one for one replacement for our earlier M2A2 Vietnam era guns where fire support bases and almost no prospect of counter-battery fire was the prevailing way of doing things, at that time. Not because they were a realistic capability option when your whole Army is being designed apparently to fight outback Australia based 4 man teams of Kamarians / Musorians, mounted in soft-skinned vehicles...

A Defendtex 40mm drone outranges this battery, puts the guns at severe operational risk given it’s dual-role ISR / attack mission and can be carried by every soldier mounting a 40mm under-barrel grenade launcher, or via remote launch capability so your humans are even better protected, being nowhere near the launch site.

How’s that for deployability? A hell of a lot better than man-handling a supposedly ‘light’ gun (still 1.8t+).
I dont just make stuff up AD. There are other sources, but I cant find the original one re the battle of Port Stanley.


Nearly 12,000 rounds of 105mm ammunition were brought up for the first phase, and four warships were allocated for fire support. The next 48 hours would see the fate of the campaign decided.

L118 light gun - Wikipedia (yes I know, Wiki)

In 1982, the light gun saw use in the Falklands War. Five batteries (30 guns) were deployed to the Falkland Islands. During the final phases of the battles around Port Stanley, these guns were firing up to 400 rounds per gun a day, mostly at "charge super", the most powerful propellant charge for which they were designed. They were a significant factor in the British victory.

I don't know what you were training for in the 80's, and yes, the Kamarians and Musurians came into it, but that was not the only contingency.
we were also training for a European conflict, SPE operations (Services protected evacuation) among other things. As it turned out, some of that training became very relevant during ET, the Solomon Islands, and Bougainville, as well as the coup in Fiji.
As for HIMARS and al the modern stuff we are getting, yep, you beauty, I'm so glad we are investing in this equipment, don't for a minute think I don't want to see us keep up, of course I do.
But, please, when we have a unit that only exists for ceremonial occasions. when we have people employed for the sole purpose of serving wine and canopies to the brass, when MPs are used as car park attendants, when operational effectiveness gives way to political correctness, don't bang on how its's stupid to keep 18 guns, in an ARES unit for a contingency that might never happen.considering there are A RES Arty units with nothing more than 81mm mortars.
Like having F111's never dropping live ordinance on an enemy target, we still had them.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
I don't have the answer to the artillery question.
But what I do know is that defence has a budget and even in time of conflict you can only build / purchase so much.
Don't get me wrong I'm all for technology and moving with the times, but some of this evolving technology is frighteningly expensive.
Yes it does creates effects on the modern battle space and hopefully saves the lives for the good guys.
But it does have to be within the realm of affordability

So before we get to carried away with the glossy sales brochure, we really need to look at what we as a mid sized power can realistically purchase,,sustain and maintain.

What ever path we go down with future purchases, we need to do justice to the whole system and validate how it fits within the greater ADF.

I kind of role my eyes sometimes on the RAN thread when we talk about load out of missiles on our future fleet and what numbers we should employ.
The reality is these things cost such a F**K tonne of money, I realistically wonder if we are in the ball park in been able to operate them in realistic numbers. Not dismissing the need, just our ability to do Justice to our aspirations.

A good lesson for Army going forward.

We have to many gaps across the Brigades as is for the basic stuff.
New capabilities ..........sure........good..............but!
Lets just keep it all in perspective and do what we do properly and within the realm of what a mid sized defense force can achieve.




Regards S


PS I do like the Federation Guard.
Suggest parade artillery would look better if only army crewed.
Mixed service uniforms within a small group just looks awkward.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
The increase in number of new Abrams MBTs going ahead with the addition of over 50 support vehicles. Its a significant upgrade to the fleet. What will they do with the existing vehicles?

Australian Army’s request to purchase 75 M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams Main Battle Tanks under the LAND 907 Phase 2 project has been reportedly greenlit by the Commonwealth cabinet, with a formal announcement expected to be made imminently.

A separate order for 29 M1150 Assault Breacher Vehicles (ABVs), 18 M1074 Joint Assault Bridges (JABs), six M88A2 Hercules Combat Recovery Vehicles, and 122 AGT1500 gas turbine engines as part of LAND 8160 Phase 1 has also been approved.


 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In Australian service were the Model 56s and Hammels ever rigged on pallets to be air dropped?
Yes, the Hammels were. They were rigged on honeycomb by AMTDU and 76 air dispatch.
Did not happen often, but they were dropped, and screened and tested after. A Bty 8/12 medium Regt were all para qualified and were part of the 3RAR Bn group.
 

ddxx

Well-Known Member
The increase in number of new Abrams MBTs going ahead with the addition of over 50 support vehicles. Its a significant upgrade to the fleet. What will they do with the existing vehicles?

Australian Army’s request to purchase 75 M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams Main Battle Tanks under the LAND 907 Phase 2 project has been reportedly greenlit by the Commonwealth cabinet, with a formal announcement expected to be made imminently.

A separate order for 29 M1150 Assault Breacher Vehicles (ABVs), 18 M1074 Joint Assault Bridges (JABs), six M88A2 Hercules Combat Recovery Vehicles, and 122 AGT1500 gas turbine engines as part of LAND 8160 Phase 1 has also been approved.


That’s interesting - does anyone have any insight into what that means for total main battle tank numbers? Are these fleet additions or replacements?

Keep the old ones in a big shed and still count them like the Russians?
 

Aardvark144

Active Member
The exist
That’s interesting - does anyone have any insight into what that means for total main battle tank numbers? Are these fleet additions or replacements?

Keep the old ones in a big shed and still count them like the Russians?
The M1A2 SEPv3 will be replacing the existing M1A1s slightly increasing the fleet to 75. The existing M1A1s will be returned to the US for rework and reallocation into US stocks.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
The exist


The M1A2 SEPv3 will be replacing the existing M1A1s slightly increasing the fleet to 75. The existing M1A1s will be returned to the US for rework and reallocation into US stocks.
I can’t quote a source but I think these are replacements but what is happening with the existing tanks is unclear to me. I think the hulls get sent back for future builds but not 100% on that.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
The exist


The M1A2 SEPv3 will be replacing the existing M1A1s slightly increasing the fleet to 75. The existing M1A1s will be returned to the US for rework and reallocation into US stocks.
Agree


My understanding is we are going from 59 MBT's to 75 MBT's.

Not 59 + 75 for a total of a total of 134.

I think there is some confusion as we are also getting additional assault breacher and bridging units which are based on the Abrams hull.
We are also getting additional spare hulls for reserve, plus additional M88A2 vehicles.

Lots of numbers to digest.
At the end of the day it equates to increased capability.

How this capability fits into the future Brigade structure, I don't know.

The above should be a good fit for the three existing Multirole Brigades as is, plus also doing justice to their respective geographic locations.

There is talk also of a very heavy Brigade in Adelaide.
What does that look like and how does this impact on the composition of the other two Multirole Brigades I have no idea.

We all await clarity for what a 2020's Army looks like.



Regards S
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The exist


The M1A2 SEPv3 will be replacing the existing M1A1s slightly increasing the fleet to 75. The existing M1A1s will be returned to the US for rework and reallocation into US stocks.
The change in numbers has come around due to the Army's restructuring, instead of having the 1st Armoured Regt with 3 Tank Sqns, we now have 3 Armour Regt's each with 1 Tank Sqn and 2 ARV Sqn's and the split up of the 1st Armoured Regt means an increase of Tank numbers was required.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thank you for that. What prime movers were used?
Uni Mogs, also heavy dropped.
I will add that at least 1 Hammel was damaged, and we actually lost a Mog in a cane field in Far North Queensland for a while, took a bit of finding and the cane cocky was not very happy!
The guns and mogs were NOT dropped regularly, but were rigged for drops fairly regularly, without actually being dropped.
Mainly to avoid the risk of damage. However, they were dropped, and rigged so that if needed for an operation, it was done with confidence.
I will add that 110 land rover and trailers and quad bikes with trailers were also dropped. Mortar PL used quads with trailers.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
we actually lost a Mog in a cane field in Far North Queensland for a while, took a bit of finding and the cane cocky was not very happy!.
I have heard of fuel drums being dropped over the jungle and never being found.

Mainly to avoid the risk of damage.
With the Model 56 the sights could be detached to avoid damage but I have no idea if this was possible with the Hammel.

I'm still amazed that the Soviets use to air drop BMDs with their crews inside, rockets fitted below the pallet to cushion the impact.
 
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