Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[OldTex]

I think you’ll find the presentation is from August this year, after the release of the Defence Strategic Update and Force Structure Plan. It is, if you like, the Army planning to implement the changes from the FSP (the hint is in the name of the presentation - ‘Army Force Structure Implementation Plan’)

Thanks for pointing out my error regarding the date of the presentation. It appears as if we, who are now only able to access unclassified information, have 2 corner pieces of a big jigsaw. It will be very interesting to see the evolution of the ADF in general and Army in particular.

 

[Nick underscore]

As I said, there is only so much you can learn from a single slide in an unclassified presentation.

One thing though, the presentation shows 2 RAR remaining in Townsville, not becoming part of 1 Bde in Darwin

Thank you kindly Raven and Mark.

Understand, this is one slide and an indicative plan, but nonetheless a very interesting presentation and commentary for future Army. Much makes sense.

What's your thoughts or others relating to the following..
- Would 12/40 Btn moves to Northern Australia under RFSG?
- May I ask the definition of 'TWF' on the slide in question (9Bde) - is this related tot he bde being both ARA/ARes?
- Interesting that 13Bde will stay ARes, but expanded compared with 4, 5 & 11Bde. Tied to obviously what you have already stated for WA region, but 9Bde indicated as under 1Div.
- Finally, 4RAR mirroring 2RAR as a PLF unit, would really 'lighten' 1Bde (i.e. Littoral combat Bde). Essentially, both PLF's are combat teams?

 

[Raven22]

Thank you kindly Raven and Mark.

Understand, this is one slide and an indicative plan, but nonetheless a very interesting presentation and commentary for future Army. Much makes sense.

What's your thoughts or others relating to the following..
- Would 12/40 Btn moves to Northern Australia under RFSG?
- May I ask the definition of 'TWF' on the slide in question (9Bde) - is this related tot he bde being both ARA/ARes?
- Interesting that 13Bde will stay ARes, but expanded compared with 4, 5 & 11Bde. Tied to obviously what you have already stated for WA region, but 9Bde indicated as under 1Div.
- Finally, 4RAR mirroring 2RAR as a PLF unit, would really 'lighten' 1Bde (i.e. Littoral combat Bde). Essentially, both PLF's are combat teams?

- I very much doubt it will move. My guess (and I do have to guess) is that turning 12/40 RTR into an RFSU is a long term plan to have a unit facing south. With things like climate change, melting ice caps, competition for resources etc, the south of our country may become an area of much greater interest than it currently is. And, let’s be honest, it can’t be any worse than the current situation which has them providing very, very little real capability.
- As you guessed, TWF means Total Work Force, ie leveraging all the capability within the regular, reserve and civilian workforce. From what I have seen, it is still mostly just wishful thinking, as without fundamental change to reserve conditions of service, I don’t think we’ll see much improvement.
- I don’t think it is fair to say that 13 Bde will be expanded compared to the other reserve brigades, just that it will be expanded. It is the only conventional force in the western third of the country, so I think there is a desire to have a bit more capability over there. One small correction is that the slide indicates that 9 Bde will remain part of FORCOMD, not 1 Div. Also interesting to note that 2 Div will no longer be part of FORCOMD, but directly commanded by AHQ.
- Essentially, yes - each PLF is combat team sized. 2 RAR can currently generate two PLFs, and it would make sense that 4 RAR in 1 Bde would be able to do the same.

 

[Nick underscore]

- I very much doubt it will move. My guess (and I do have to guess) is that turning 12/40 RTR into an RFSU is a long term plan to have a unit facing south. With things like climate change, melting ice caps, competition for resources etc, the south of our country may become an area of much greater interest than it currently is. And, let’s be honest, it can’t be any worse than the current situation which has them providing very, very little real capability.
- As you guessed, TWF means Total Work Force, ie leveraging all the capability within the regular, reserve and civilian workforce. From what I have seen, it is still mostly just wishful thinking, as without fundamental change to reserve conditions of service, I don’t think we’ll see much improvement.
- I don’t think it is fair to say that 13 Bde will be expanded compared to the other reserve brigades, just that it will be expanded. It is the only conventional force in the western third of the country, so I think there is a desire to have a bit more capability over there. One small correction is that the slide indicates that 9 Bde will remain part of FORCOMD, not 1 Div. Also interesting to note that 2 Div will no longer be part of FORCOMD, but directly commanded by AHQ.
- Essentially, yes - each PLF is combat team sized. 2 RAR can currently generate two PLFs, and it would make sense that 4 RAR in 1 Bde would be able to do the same.

As always Raven, thank you for taking time to respond. All very interesting points & feedback.

May I ask a terminology/ cyclical question extending from from the above? The previous Bde structure of ARA (Bersheeba) was to be able generate x10 BG HQ's. Does that in your view anyway change with the development of the PLF capability in place?

Apologies, I thought 2 Div was under FORCOMD and therefore made the distinction of 9 Bde ex-2 Div. I should have checked the slide again

 

[Raven22]

May I ask a terminology/ cyclical question extending from from the above? The previous Bde structure of ARA (Bersheeba) was to be able generate x10 BG HQ's. Does that in your view anyway change with the development of the PLF capability in place?

2 RAR can still form a BG HQ, so no change there. What arguably has changed is the ability to actually form 10 battle groups, due to a reduction in sub-units. However, the whole point of the force structure changes is that the number of manoeuvre units in the combat brigades is no longer the best (or even a good) measure of the strength of the army.

 

[old faithful]

AFP regularly second Police officers from other states and territories, so will have plenty of experience and expertise to call upon to assist with their own investigators if needed.

I have been asked to clarify this post by the Mods.
I can only say that I work in Corrections and work closely with NT police. I know that the AF P second NT police officers to work at the airport in the capacity of AFP officers.
The actual questioning of the AFP,s ability to conduct investigations was not made by me, the statement that the AFP second officers was a reply to the text highlighted in red, by Hairyman.
Hope this clears up any confusion by the mods.
If not, Please PM me again.
Regards O.F

 

[old faithful]

There are still a lot of what if’s, and I know that they don’t excuse murder, but put yourself in their shoes.
I can think of quite a few reasons that SAS might kill an “innocent “ civilian, one being they are not innocent but keep getting away with it through being clever and useing the ROE in a clever way. Others being time restraints, like you have too many prisoners to transport, you either stay until more transport arrives, putting your entire patrol in danger for who knows how long, knowing that you are completely compromised at that point, let the extras go to fight them again another day, or murder them. What would you do? You have seconds to make the call with adrenaline still pumping, you are trained to make a decision, it’s not always the right one, but better than being indecisive.

Is this the post that was reported, and asked me to clarify?
None of the reasons I have put forward in this post legitimise, or excuse murder. But could be possible reasons that some of the murders occurred. Frustration, multiple tours, some operators did 12 tours of Afghanistan! Planting of false evidence is just stupid, and can only lead to suspicion and allegations, and probably prosecution. I apologise if anyone thinks that I am legitimising murder on the battlefield.

@old faithful Yes it is and I have edited in a link to this in your original post.

Ngatimozart.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

I don't think any of these can act as a mitigating factor. In most cases IMO the murderer has a motive, sometimes one that might even be considered morally not so corrupt.

 

[Anthony_B_78]

For the life of me, I can not think of anything positive about striking 2 Sqn from the orbat.
I know ex serving members who were serving before Afghanistan who were members of 2 Sqn, including Vietnam vets.
SFA achieved by this action.

I didn't see a response to this one so I'll offer a thought. I have a political background not a military one and as I see it this was a political move by Chief of Army to avoid any momentum building behind a potential campaign for the SASR to be disbanded. In effect, a message is needed. And that's what it is, isn't it? It says the Army takes this seriously and will leave a lasting reminder in place that it was shamed by what occurred. They'll likely raise another squadron with a different number (imagine 4 Squadron?) quietly in due course.

 

[old faithful]

I didn't see a response to this one so I'll offer a thought. I have a political background not a military one and as I see it this was a political move by Chief of Army to avoid any momentum building behind a potential campaign for the SASR to be disbanded. In effect, a message is needed. And that's what it is, isn't it? It says the Army takes this seriously and will leave a lasting reminder in place that it was shamed by what occurred. They'll likely raise another squadron with a different number (imagine 4 Squadron?) quietly in due course.

I don’t see it like that I’m sorry.
Mainstream media continue ( at politicians request?) to use the mantra about “don’t judge Islam by the actions of a few” type thing.
It is similar is it not?

 

[spoz]

Disbanding a unit and striking it off the order of battle is a traditional, though rarely used, response to that unit dishonouring itself - so it’s a reasonable thing for CA to do although the timing (before anybody has been charged much less convicted) seems to smack of a PA led response.

in this modern world you need an SF capability for CT and covert and other immediate surgical activities. If the SAS as a whole was to be disbanded it would have to be reinvented in some other guise, so what’s the point? The SAS of my acquaintance, now all retired, are as appalled as anybody else. They are going around shaking their heads and wondering what has happened to the Regiment they love. They’re all hard, very hard, men but also both honourable and fully understanding of the laws of war. A shock to effect a culture change is needed, not disbandment of the Regiment.

 

[Stampede]

Disbanding a unit and striking it off the order of battle is a traditional, though rarely used, response to that unit dishonouring itself - so it’s a reasonable thing for CA to do although the timing (before anybody has been charged much less convicted) seems to smack of a PA led response.

in this modern world you need an SF capability for CT and covert and other immediate surgical activities. If the SAS as a whole was to be disbanded it would have to be reinvented in some other guise, so what’s the point? The SAS of my acquaintance, now all retired, are as appalled as anybody else. They are going around shaking their heads and wondering what has happened to the Regiment they love. They’re all hard, very hard, men but also both honourable and fully understanding of the laws of war. A shock to effect a culture change is needed, not disbandment of the Regiment.

Acknowledging the need for a "SF capability for CT and covert and other immediate surgical activities" it begs the question are we best served by having two different regular regiments in the SASR and the commandos operating within the same SF Brigade.
Should all Special forces should wear the same hat?
I can understand the history and proud traditions of these units, but moving forward, the SF like the rest of Army may need a rethink.
If either the Commandos or the SASR were of significantly different size to the other, then perhaps their relationship with each other may be different.
I feel this is a problem


Maybe some scope to keep the SASR and supporting units doing the above niche roles and revaluate what we want from the Commando unit.
The SF should not always be the default unit of choice for some activity's that can also be tackled by other Army resources.
Suggest the Commandos be expanded to include the duties of 2RAR and the proposed 4RAR and become a well trained and equipped Marine / Ranger / Commando type of brigade.
More a traditional specialised light infantry Brigade rather than a highly trained special forces Unit.
This is not intended as a punishment for the Commandos but rather a recognition of Army's future needs and how we fulfil them.

Their scope would be to perform those many roles in-between the SASR and motorised / mechanised Infantry.

Thoughts


Regards S

 

[Todjaeger]

Acknowledging the need for a "SF capability for CT and covert and other immediate surgical activities" it begs the question are we best served by having two different regular regiments in the SASR and the commandos operating within the same SF Brigade.
Should all Special forces should wear the same hat?
I can understand the history and proud traditions of these units, but moving forward, the SF like the rest of Army may need a rethink.
If either the Commandos or the SASR were of significantly different size to the other, then perhaps their relationship with each other may be different.
I feel this is a problem


Maybe some scope to keep the SASR and supporting units doing the above niche roles and revaluate what we want from the Commando unit.
The SF should not always be the default unit of choice for some activity's that can also be tackled by other Army resources.
Suggest the Commandos be expanded to include the duties of 2RAR and the proposed 4RAR and become a well trained and equipped Marine / Ranger / Commando type of brigade.
More a traditional specialised light infantry Brigade rather than a highly trained special forces Unit.
This is not intended as a punishment for the Commandos but rather a recognition of Army's future needs and how we fulfil them.

Their scope would be to perform those many roles in-between the SASR and motorised / mechanised Infantry.

Thoughts


Regards S

My understanding on the difference between the SASR is while there are some areas of overlap, or potential overlap (TAG and TAG-East for example) the major roles for these units are different, which in large part why the SASR and 2nd Commando, which used to be 4th Bn, RAR (Commando), exist. AFAIK the SASR is not intended to provide large scale direct action forces/operations, while 2nd Commando does have that as a role.

 

[Redlands18]

Boxer CRV excels in amphibious trials | ADBR

UPDATED 02 December with video: The Australian Army’s new Rheinmetall Boxer combat reconnaissance vehicle (CRV) has successfully completed a series of amphibious trials aboard the Navy’s LHD, HMAS Adelaide. Being…

adbr.com.au

This perhaps better then any pictures I’ve seen shows just what a Beast the Boxer is. Even makes the LCM-1E and LCM-8 look small

 

[Bob53]

I don’t see it like that I’m sorry.
Mainstream media continue ( at politicians request?) to use the mantra about “don’t judge Islam by the actions of a few” type thing.
It is similar is it not?

I guess that the PR was in front of mind with the disbanding, but as you say not every Catholic in Northern Ireland was a bomber, not all Victorian Premiers are idiots. Interesting to read today in the Australian the claim that no officers were aware of what was taking place. What happens to the rest of the 2 squadron members In the meantime.

 

[Bob53]

Found this article about the upgrade plans for the K9 SPH to unmanned. Still a fair way off but how closely exactly will the AS9 be to the K9. is it an exact version or will the AS9 have Aussie modifications?

South Korea to deploy unmanned K9 howitzer by 2040

Hanwha Defense is working on an unmanned variant of the South Korean-built K9 Thunder self-propelled howitzer, according to the artillery manufacturer.

www.defensenews.com

 

[old faithful]

Maybe the shame and dishonour that the current and recent members of the Sqn have bought on SASR, previous sqn personnel who served with honour, Army ADF and the nation is enough reason. Can you think of any other time in Aussie Army history when such war crimes have been committed?

Battle of Wareo - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

On this day 27th November 1943

Take note of the casualties on both sides.....Japanese 451 killed. 1 captured.
No wounded? Might raise a few questions eh?
Diffent times I know and higher stakes and closer to home,no social media, more ordinary Aussies serving, a more righteous cause. Makes numbers more palatable doesn’t it.

 

[John Fedup]

Battle of Wareo - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

On this day 27th November 1943

Take note of the casualties on both sides.....Japanese 451 killed. 1 captured.
No wounded? Might raise a few questions eh?
Diffent times I know and higher stakes and closer to home,no social media, more ordinary Aussies serving, a more righteous cause. Makes numbers more palatable doesn’t it.

All fair points but many Japanese troops preferred suicide to surrender which would also explain the kill/capture ratio. I guess there is no record on the lone prisoner’s version of events.

 

[south]

Battle of Wareo - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

On this day 27th November 1943

Take note of the casualties on both sides.....Japanese 451 killed. 1 captured.
No wounded? Might raise a few questions eh?
Diffent times I know and higher stakes and closer to home,no social media, more ordinary Aussies serving, a more righteous cause. Makes numbers more palatable doesn’t it.

Not really, no, as it is largely irrelevant.

The ROE/LOAC the ADF currently subscribe to add clear on the treatment of prisoners and hors-de-combat. At the standard of proof required by the Brereton report (vice a criminal trial, and noting that people were compelled to attend etc) there is enough evidence for the ADF to take action.

The SF, particularly SASR are supposed to be able to act autonomously in small groups with little to no supervision, in potentially ambiguous situations. To achieve this they get their choice in manning from across the ADF, and are impeccably resourced and supported. In that environment they are trusted to make correct decisions to further Australia’s goals (and any coalitions goals), from tactical to strategic level... I think it’s relatively simple task on reading the report to argue that this has not always occurred.

If you want to argue about other factors such as op-tempo, multiple rotations, failure of leadership/supervision/organisational structure be my guest.

 

[old faithful]

I want to make it clear once again, that I in no way condone or excuse any war crimes, particularly ego based killings on the battlefield. If guilty, then all involved should be prosecuted. My post was only in response to ngati regarding can I think of any other time war crimes were committed by Aussie forces. My answer is yes.
In response to this post, I find it very hard to not be argumentative, as my Grandfather told a story to me about his transit to Canada in WW2. They were on ship as part of a convoy. The ship was intercepted by a U boat, which other ships had forced to surface with depth charges. Once on the surface, the U boat was sunk with 37mm AA guns. I have two of the shells. There were no survivors and the convoy did not slow down. As per the procedure. Many men thought that the survivors of the U boat should have been taken when it first surfaced.
As for the battle of wareo, Japs preferred suicide to capture. Yes , ever heard of the Cowra breakout? There was only 1Jap survivor 431 killed with no wounded? So your answer is pretty much this....No chance of any executions here, we are just very good shots, and all the wounded Japs killed themselves, except one who we captured. Case closed.