Australian Army Discussions and Updates

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
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The Australian has reported that the entire Tiger fleet has been grounded and deemed unsafe following the crash in Africa. It's also reported that no single cause can be found but that the aircraft probably nose dived killing both the crew.
the future doesn't look too bright and their replacement may come sooner rather than later.

I can't post the Australians version but found another.

Australia grounds $1.5b Tiger fighter, manufacturer deems helicopter 'unsafe' | Manufacturers' Monthly
From recollection the rotors came off when it went into a dive for no known reason...

Not a good look...
 

Beam

Member
LAND 400 Contest

Just saw an announcement on APAC from QLD pollies and Rheinmettall regarding their bid for Land 400 Ph. 2 with Boxer.

Usual stuff, similar to the Vic pollies promoting the AMV35 recently, but one item mentioned was that one of each of the demo units last week were put through 2 major explosions, one from beneath, the other from the side..

Only the Boxer drove off the range after the blasts.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
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In a germsn forum someone claimed it not only left the range under it's own power but also climbed back onto the truck on it's own.

The AMV not so much.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
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Waylander, has there been any reports in the German press about your Tiger crash in Africa or any subsequent developments?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
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Probably not much more than what you know.

The bird came down rather suddenly while flying overwatch for some ground elements. The rotor blades came of but there is no indication so far if this was the cause or due to the stress of another failure and the consequent and sudden loss of height.

The manufacturer grounded all Tigers but as a precaution as he is so far not implemented into the crash investigation team. That comes at a later stage.

There were also some reports about the crew, due to our notorious shortage on pilots, not having the number of flying hours and training normally required for oversea deployments. But as of now it doesn't look like a pilot error.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Probably not much more than what you know.

The bird came down rather suddenly while flying overwatch for some ground elements. The rotor blades came of but there is no indication so far if this was the cause or due to the stress of another failure and the consequent and sudden loss of height.

The manufacturer grounded all Tigers but as a precaution as he is so far not implemented into the crash investigation team. That comes at a later stage.

There were also some reports about the crew, due to our notorious shortage on pilots, not having the number of flying hours and training normally required for oversea deployments. But as of now it doesn't look like a pilot error.
Cheers and thanks.
 

Geddy

Member
My original question was apolitical, trying to understand the Australian Army's rationale for making such a decision.
If it was simply based on gender diversity it needs to be condemned. If it was based on recruiting women to fill jobs at which women have proven to be more adept, it needs to be explained.
I was trying to understand the connection with your point and making a disparaging remark about the Canadian PM. Your opinion of him (particularly just a throw away remark) is irrelevant to the discussion.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
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But that refers to what my main point was. ADF talks over and over about acquiring complementary capabilities, but you see time and time again that the left hand clearly doesn't talk to the right.

If we are acquiring a future amphibious capability why would we acquire connectors designed for a previous generation of vehicles? I really don't think it takes any great intellectual leap to assume that capabilities needs will grow in future rather than lessen and plan accordingly...
Sorry for the late reply, but I was out of the country for a bit.

Your post has confused me - all of the ship to shore connectors (the LLCs) are able to carry the Land400 vehicles without issues. They worked out load diagrams etc for the LHDs using indicative Land400 stand-ins, to make sure the decks could handle the weight. Other than the obvious fact you can't lift as many Land400 vehicles, or move them as quick (an unavoidable result of the laws of physics), the amphibious ships won't have any problems with the Land400 vehicles.

The only vehicles that are causing issues are the M1/M88, which was a known entity when the LHDs were purchased, and the size/weight of the M1 was taken into account (although as we know the LLC failed to deliver in that regard).

I don't see what the issue of 'the left hand not talking to the right' is.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
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Sorry for the late reply, but I was out of the country for a bit.

Your post has confused me - all of the ship to shore connectors (the LLCs) are able to carry the Land400 vehicles without issues. They worked out load diagrams etc for the LHDs using indicative Land400 stand-ins, to make sure the decks could handle the weight. Other than the obvious fact you can't lift as many Land400 vehicles, or move them as quick (an unavoidable result of the laws of physics), the amphibious ships won't have any problems with the Land400 vehicles.

The only vehicles that are causing issues are the M1/M88, which was a known entity when the LHDs were purchased, and the size/weight of the M1 was taken into account (although as we know the LLC failed to deliver in that regard).

I don't see what the issue of 'the left hand not talking to the right' is.
It seems from the outside that despite whatever processes ADF and CASG utilise, there seems to be a recurring disconnect between the various acquisition projects that happens over and over again.

The ship to shore connectors is one issue. But we see similar issues, over and over again with radio / datalink systems, battle management systems, buying piecemeal elements of capability and not considering the 'full' picture or at least being consistantly unable to articulate sufficiently why the entire capability should be acquired.

There are reasons sure, but that doesn't stop the problems from continually cropping up.

Tiger data-links / BACN gateways and new platforms needed to allow major new ADF platforms to even communicate in an era of SDR radios...

LLC's.

Abrams BMS - no SatCom capability.

Those are just ones that spring to mind but I've little doubt there are plenty others that have occured.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
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It seems from the outside that despite whatever processes ADF and CASG utilise, there seems to be a recurring disconnect between the various acquisition projects that happens over and over again.

The ship to shore connectors is one issue. But we see similar issues, over and over again with radio / datalink systems, battle management systems, buying piecemeal elements of capability and not considering the 'full' picture or at least being consistantly unable to articulate sufficiently why the entire capability should be acquired.

There are reasons sure, but that doesn't stop the problems from continually cropping up.

Tiger data-links / BACN gateways and new platforms needed to allow major new ADF platforms to even communicate in an era of SDR radios...

LLC's.

Abrams BMS - no SatCom capability.

Those are just ones that spring to mind but I've little doubt there are plenty others that have occured.
While I agree with this to some extent, I also think you are being very unfair on the people who bring these capabilities into service. A lot of the issues you highlight is simply the situation changing after the decision is made. I'd be a lot more critical if anyone else in a similar situation was doing much better.

For example, look at the Tiger data-links you highlighted. What was the alternative, noting the decision was made in 2001? Were the people making the decisions to digitise the Army with LAND 200 supposed to constrain every other platform in defence just to make sure they could talk to the Tiger? Or were the people making the decision on Tiger in 2001 supposed to predict what system would be chosen for LAND 200 in ten years time? Even if the Apache was chosen, as hindsight would dictate, they still wouldn't be able to talk to the BMS that was eventually chosen for the rest of Army.

Ditto the Abrams. What BMS system should have been fitted to the vehicles in 2004 besides FBCB2/BFT? Were they supposed to predict what was chosen for LAND 200 five+ years in the future? Or should the LAND 200 decision been constrained to what was fitted in the Abrams, noting it was a very old system already? As it was, the FBCB2 system delivered provided excellent service, and was used successfully for many years on the deployed ASLAV and Bushmaster fleet.

There was no problem with lack of foresight in regards interoperability with the LLCs - they simply aren't able to deliver the capability promised by the manufacturer (kind of). There is also the not insignificant issue that when the decision on JP2048 was made, they were basically guessing what sort of amphib capability would be required. Its hard to fault them for not predicting the results of 10+ years of changing strategic direction and policy (for example, the fact that the LCHs wouldn't be replaced), and five+ years of experimentation with the amphib capability (who knew what an ARE/ARU/ARG would look like in 2004?)

Of course, a significant problem is that for everything to be interoperable, particularly for comms, you are more or less forced to customise new platforms, thus adding to cost, risk, and schedule. Imagine the commentary on the internet if we, for example, chose to fit a different BMS to the Abrams fleet when we bought it. The editorials write themselves. The only alternative to customising new platforms is to simply buy everything off the shelf from the US, which, while attractive in a lot of ways, is hardly a solution to everything.

It is very easy to be critical in hindsight, not so easy to make a better decision with the information available at the time. Which isn't to say that much better outcomes couldn't have been achieved, just that usually failed programs aren't the result of everyone on the internet magically being smarter than the people running the programs.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
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While I agree with this to some extent, I also think you are being very unfair on the people who bring these capabilities into service. A lot of the issues you highlight is simply the situation changing after the decision is made. I'd be a lot more critical if anyone else in a similar situation was doing much better.

For example, look at the Tiger data-links you highlighted. What was the alternative, noting the decision was made in 2001? Were the people making the decisions to digitise the Army with LAND 200 supposed to constrain every other platform in defence just to make sure they could talk to the Tiger? Or were the people making the decision on Tiger in 2001 supposed to predict what system would be chosen for LAND 200 in ten years time? Even if the Apache was chosen, as hindsight would dictate, they still wouldn't be able to talk to the BMS that was eventually chosen for the rest of Army.

Ditto the Abrams. What BMS system should have been fitted to the vehicles in 2004 besides FBCB2/BFT? Were they supposed to predict what was chosen for LAND 200 five+ years in the future? Or should the LAND 200 decision been constrained to what was fitted in the Abrams, noting it was a very old system already? As it was, the FBCB2 system delivered provided excellent service, and was used successfully for many years on the deployed ASLAV and Bushmaster fleet.

There was no problem with lack of foresight in regards interoperability with the LLCs - they simply aren't able to deliver the capability promised by the manufacturer (kind of). There is also the not insignificant issue that when the decision on JP2048 was made, they were basically guessing what sort of amphib capability would be required. Its hard to fault them for not predicting the results of 10+ years of changing strategic direction and policy (for example, the fact that the LCHs wouldn't be replaced), and five+ years of experimentation with the amphib capability (who knew what an ARE/ARU/ARG would look like in 2004?)

Of course, a significant problem is that for everything to be interoperable, particularly for comms, you are more or less forced to customise new platforms, thus adding to cost, risk, and schedule. Imagine the commentary on the internet if we, for example, chose to fit a different BMS to the Abrams fleet when we bought it. The editorials write themselves. The only alternative to customising new platforms is to simply buy everything off the shelf from the US, which, while attractive in a lot of ways, is hardly a solution to everything.

It is very easy to be critical in hindsight, not so easy to make a better decision with the information available at the time. Which isn't to say that much better outcomes couldn't have been achieved, just that usually failed programs aren't the result of everyone on the internet magically being smarter than the people running the programs.
I agree with that, but it does seem that the difference between the 'purple' desire of the ADF on paper and in smart sounding speeches is radically different to the outcomes of capability decisions, in so many instances.

Yes we most definitely should have kept the BMS on Abrams, but we didn't acquire the SatCom capability to make it fully effective.

We buy MH-60R with TCDL capability, but our ships don't have the Hawklink terminals, antennas etc to make use of this capability, as another more recent example... How many airforce platforms have it (the answer is none I believe...) yet we purport to be a networked force and so on.

Seems like there is a missing piece to the puzzle, some sort of overarching ADF capability standards unit to ensure as far as possible that the different project teams are actually working off the same script. If a tactical data-link is needed, then one that can accomodate all required waveforms should be acquired (for example) across the various relevant stakeholders, seems to me what is required.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes we most definitely should have kept the BMS on Abrams, but we didn't acquire the SatCom capability to make it fully effective.
While true, the cost of getting reliable access to satellites would have been many times the cost of the entire Abrams project. Considering FBCB2 was only fitted to the tank fleet and nothing else, it would have been little sense to spend the dollars necessary to get satellite access over Australia (using it in a deployed setting was never going to be an issue, as we could piggy back off the US).

If a tactical data-link is needed, then one that can accomodate all required waveforms should be acquired (for example) across the various relevant stakeholders, seems to me what is required.
Well, of course. It's not that easy though. Which system fits the bill you describe? Do we have to develop a new system to do what we want? How do we integrate it into every platform that needs it? How much will it all cost?

What you describe is more or less the holy grail. The only problem is, no one anywhere has been able to achieve it.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
While true, the cost of getting reliable access to satellites would have been many times the cost of the entire Abrams project. Considering FBCB2 was only fitted to the tank fleet and nothing else, it would have been little sense to spend the dollars necessary to get satellite access over Australia (using it in a deployed setting was never going to be an issue, as we could piggy back off the US).

Well, of course. It's not that easy though. Which system fits the bill you describe? Do we have to develop a new system to do what we want? How do we integrate it into every platform that needs it? How much will it all cost?

What you describe is more or less the holy grail. The only problem is, no one anywhere has been able to achieve it.
Well it doesn't need to all come within the one box, look at F-35. We ARE buying platforms that carry Link 16 and MADL in the one platform and our navy vessels have long had Link 11/16/22 , so getting multiple standards sorted is in no way beyond us.

But then major projects come along and add relative niche capabilities such as Eurogrid and Hawklink as 2 major examples that are just completely out of the box in comparison to anything else we operate. That is where i see the missing piece.

Out of interest, going back to an earlier point, if we HAD bought AH-64 Apache in the 2004-2005 timeframe (when Tiger started arriving) it would have come fitted with the Tactical Common Data-Link...

But obviously a system designed in the 70's and made US standard and NATO compliant in the 90's wasn't forseeable for the AIR-87 Project Team...
 

SteveR

Active Member
I

We buy MH-60R with TCDL capability, but our ships don't have the Hawklink terminals, antennas etc to make use of this capability, as another more recent example... How many airforce platforms have it (the answer is none I believe...) yet we purport to be a networked force and so on.

.
The AP-3C were fitted with TCDL - the antenna were mounted in the doppler radome as the doppler was removed when GPS was fitted during the AP-3C update. TCDL was used to transit the video feed from the STARFIRE E-O turrets fitted for use over;and in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Arabian Sea.

I believe the Litening EO pods fitted to RAAF Classic Hornets and the Shornet ATFLIR EO pods transmit video to Rover terminals used by Allied troops with capability for troops to designate a location back to pilot.
 
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Raven22

The Bunker Group
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Out of interest, going back to an earlier point, if we HAD bought AH-64 Apache in the 2004-2005 timeframe (when Tiger started arriving) it would have come fitted with the Tactical Common Data-Link...

But obviously a system designed in the 70's and made US standard and NATO compliant in the 90's wasn't forseeable for the AIR-87 Project Team...
That wouldn't help much with talking to ground units. TCDL can't talk to the current BMS either. TCDL does a very different thing to BMS. You might be able to link with a JFECC, or have troops able to view footage with Rover terminals, but that's about all. It wouldn't help with BFT, or developing a common operating picture, passing orders, or any of the other features of BMS. You'd still be stuck with the same problem as Tiger - either developing a way to make the installed systems talk to BMS at great expense and difficulty, living without, or finding a way to install BMS in the cockpit (a laptop strapped in somewhere does the job, apparently).

My point in all this isn't that we couldn't have done better, it's just that none of this is as easy as it seems with the benefit of hindsight and from the comfort of the Internet. To reiterate the AIR 87 example - there was no system available in 2001 that would talk to the current BMS system. Nor would it make sense to choose one of the systems available in the AIR 87 contenders in 2001 to be the system used to digitise the entire army ten years later. The world isn't that neat.
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
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That wouldn't help much with talking to ground units. TCDL can't talk to the current BMS either. TCDL does a very different thing to BMS. You might be able to link with a JFECC, or have troops able to view footage with Rover terminals, but that's about all. It wouldn't help with BFT, or developing a common operating picture, passing orders, or any of the other features of BMS. You'd still be stuck with the same problem as Tiger - either developing a way to make the installed systems talk to BMS at great expense and difficulty, living without, or finding a way to install BMS in the cockpit (a laptop strapped in somewhere does the job, apparently).
That depends entirely on the ground receivers we've chosen to acquire and is the case regardless of the comms technology we choose. TCDL, works well with ground units in all sorts of scenarios and seems to work okay on 20 STA Regiment's RQ-7B Shadow 200's...

My point in all this isn't that we couldn't have done better, it's just that none of this is as easy as it seems with the benefit of hindsight and from the comfort of the Internet. To reiterate the AIR 87 example - there was no system available in 2001 that would talk to the current BMS system. Nor would it make sense to choose one of the systems available in the AIR 87 contenders in 2001 to be the system used to digitise the entire army ten years later. The world isn't that neat.
I get that but my point is simply that we continue to acquire capabilities that mean the left hand hasn't spoken to the right. BMS is a perfect example. The Elbit BMS system 'might' be the best there is. Yet apparently it can't talk to the Army's Tactical UAV system, in the same way Navy can't get imagery / sensor data streamed to it's major surface combatants from it's brand new helicopter purchase, which is similar but not as bad as the situation Army is in with it's 'recon' helicopter purchase which can't talk digitally to anything else in Army except itself, from all reports, except when they strap on in the aforementioned and interim US data-link system...

Couldn't have done better? I'm not so sure of that. I agree we haven't picking disparate platform types with unique networking solutions through stove-piped acquisition processes, with little thought to overall architecture that are (seemingly and admittedly) gradually being abandoned.

It's interesting before you mentioned many of these problems would go away if we just bought all American products, with which I happen to agree but then infer that such isn't a great idea, yet the further along the networked road we go, the more American products we seem to buy to replace non-American ones that haven't worked out well. Again Tiger being the poster child of this strategy...
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I was trying to understand the connection with your point and making a disparaging remark about the Canadian PM. Your opinion of him (particularly just a throw away remark) is irrelevant to the discussion.
Go back and read the thread, at no time have I mentioned, let alone criticised the Canadian PM. I think you have confused your posts.
I've just picked this up on rereading the thread so please excuse the delay.
 

meatshield

Active Member
I read with interest an article in the latest edition of Aust & nz defender about the change in make up of the infantry battalions for plan Beersheba. One will now be motorise and the other mechanised. Can I ask the members what was the reasoning behind this decision? Was it the expense of having 2 mechanised battalions or something else? Could the army be looking at equipping the motorised battalion eventually with a more potent wheeled vehicle like the amv-35 or boxer?
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I read with interest an article in the latest edition of Aust & nz defender about the change in make up of the infantry battalions for plan Beersheba. One will now be motorise and the other mechanised. Can I ask the members what was the reasoning behind this decision? Was it the expense of having 2 mechanised battalions or something else? Could the army be looking at equipping the motorised battalion eventually with a more potent wheeled vehicle like the amv-35 or boxer?
The change is purely to save manpower - if the infantry drive themselves around it takes less soldiers than having soldiers from the ACR do it. Those soldiers will then be reinvested in new capabilities. It is trading off flexibility for efficiency.

Having two mechanised battalions wouldn't make much sense - all the infantry would then be mounted in 35+ tonne vehicles, which doesn't provide many options when it comes to deployments. As it stands, one battalion will be mech and the the other will effectively be light, just with the option to drive themselves around in PMVs if appropriate.

It's probably worth pointing out that the LAND 400 equipped Army will be pretty well armoured. Of the 27 manoeuvre subunits, three will be tank, six will be cav (30+ tonne AFV) and nine will be mech (35+ tonne AFV). Essentially, two thirds of the combat force will be armoured. All the rest will be equipped with protected vehicles (Bushmaster and Hawkei) as well, so there will be no shortage of armour.
 
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