Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[gf0012-aust]

The issues don't really affect the lower tactical levels much, who still all play nicely together, but it certainly is time for the unit leadership to pull their heads in and work out they are playing on the same team.

Without giving away details I can recall only one incident where an ex 2Reg Commander went of the reservation and almost managed to get his old shop to buy a solution set that was already in place on the west coast, and which had been used in operations for the prev 3 years.

in that case I'd argue that confluence of events, commercial eagerness, a misguided view that they could be innovative in isolation and bypass proper process and a 6 who was new in the job resulted in some angst

as you say I've never seen it in the operators, and in the work I was doing at the time, my principle contractor was ex operator from one shop but was required to work with the others. we couldn't have got the results without co-operation

my own unqual opinion is that this is probably trying to ride off residual energy that is coming out of events in NZ

 

[Raven22]

I dare say that at level you deal with people GF everyone behaves themselves. Behind closed doors it is often different story. It would be inappropriate to give any examples, but there have been a few occasions recently where Army's senior leadership had to personally intervene. It's certainly not as bad as made out in the article, but the central theme of the story is accurate.

 

[Volkodav]

Actually I can see it. I haven't worked with SF to any degree directly but I have worked with enough ex uniforms to know there is a subset of them, usually former subject matter experts who are always trumpeting their legendary status within the service they came from. They seem to transfer their loyalty and tribalism totally to their new employer, and become completely one eyed about what ever, uniform, logo or badge they are working under.

The number of ex RAN types I've seen whinging and complaining about the RAN, blaming the RAN for every fault and problem, even when it is obviously a contractor or design fault. They then change companies and do the same there, or even go back into service and switch sides so completely you would be forgiven for thinking they were schizophrenic. I have also encountered army and RAAF, as well as those who have never served in the boy scouts, let alone the ADF, like that and I should reiterate that these are a minority with most of the ex uniforms being among the best, most capable and competent people I have ever worked with.

I think you will always come across people like that, why they behave like that I don't know, but it is universally destructive. Maybe they are hyper competative, maybe they have psychopathic tendencies, who knows.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Actually I can see it. I haven't worked with SF to any degree directly but I have worked with enough ex uniforms to know there is a subset of them, usually former subject matter experts who are always trumpeting their legendary status within the service they came from. They seem to transfer their loyalty and tribalism totally to their new employer, and become completely one eyed about what ever, uniform, logo or badge they are working under.

The number of ex RAN types I've seen whinging and complaining about the RAN, blaming the RAN for every fault and problem, even when it is obviously a contractor or design fault. They then change companies and do the same there, or even go back into service and switch sides so completely you would be forgiven for thinking they were schizophrenic. I have also encountered army and RAAF, as well as those who have never served in the boy scouts, let alone the ADF, like that and I should reiterate that these are a minority with most of the ex uniforms being among the best, most capable and competent people I have ever worked with.

I think you will always come across people like that, why they behave like that I don't know, but it is universally destructive. Maybe they are hyper competative, maybe they have psychopathic tendencies, who knows.

actually, the ones who give ADF the hardest time are ex service people from Central Agencies.

so when the project ends up in front of DoFD and PMO (for example), it has turned into a vindicative opportunity for passed over ex officers....

 

[Massive]

Nasams

The Australian is reporting that NASAMS has been selected for the GBAD upgrade.

Link here:

Nocookies | The Australian

Big step up in capability - there seems to be a lot of this going on.

Be interesting to see how many systems are procured.

Would this system be require lower manning than the current RBS-70 system?

Regards,

Massive

 

[Boagrius]

The Australian is reporting that NASAMS has been selected for the GBAD upgrade.

Link here:

Nocookies | The Australian

Big step up in capability - there seems to be a lot of this going on.

Be interesting to see how many systems are procured.

Would this system be require lower manning than the current RBS-70 system?

Regards,

Massive

Wow, wasn't expecting that announcement this soon. Makes sense though. We already use the AMRAAM and the forthcoming AMRAAM-ER strikes me as essentially a land based ESSM BlkII.

I note they mention integrating a CEA radar (in lieu of Sentinel?) and possibly Hawkei as well. I would have thought a box launcher would make more sense if we wanted to go down the AMRAAM-ER route though(?).

Nevertheless, big step up indeed.

 

[cdxbow]

Wow, wasn't expecting that announcement this soon. Makes sense though. We already use the AMRAAM and the forthcoming AMRAAM-ER strikes me as essentially a land based ESSM BlkII.

I note they mention integrating a CEA radar (in lieu of Sentinel?) and possibly Hawkei as well. I would have thought a box launcher would make more sense if we wanted to go down the AMRAAM-ER route though(?).

Nevertheless, big step up indeed.

Yes, would seem to be a very sensible way to proceed, using the existing stock of AMRAAM and leveraging our CEA radar technology. Should be relatively low risk. Good timing wrt to the Hawkei. I think there have already been tests of NASAM with CEA radars but I can't remember who did it or when. I'm pretty sure ESSM has also been launched from a NASAM system, at least in a test, which would give us a few options.

 

[ADMk2]

Yes, would seem to be a very sensible way to proceed, using the existing stock of AMRAAM and leveraging our CEA radar technology. Should be relatively low risk. Good timing wrt to the Hawkei. I think there have already been tests of NASAM with CEA radars but I can't remember who did it or when. I'm pretty sure ESSM has also been launched from a NASAM system, at least in a test, which would give us a few options.

Yep, the basic launcher can fire AIM-9X, AMRAAM or ESSM...

No surprise the CEFAR radar truck was hanging around Avalon...

 

[Boagrius]

Yep, the basic launcher can fire AIM-9X, AMRAAM or ESSM...

No surprise the CEFAR radar truck was hanging around Avalon...

That also struck me when I was at Avalon. Seems like a very promising option in the context of Plan Jericho. I suspect a system like this should plug very well into the existing ISR framework, and allow for things like NIFC-CA-esque CEC etc down the track.

I also doubt it's a coincidence that all of the missiles you mentioned are already in our inventory...

 

[meatshield]

Just did a quick search on the amraam-er and the range is guesstimated to be out to 180 to 200km! If that's true it would be a game changer for the army.....

 

[Boagrius]

Just did a quick search on the amraam-er and the range is guesstimated to be out to 180 to 200km! If that's true it would be a game changer for the army.....

Doubt it's that far. AMRAAM-ER (AFAIK) is essentially the front end of an AMRAAM mated to the back end of an ESSM. The ~180km stat is usually attributed to an air launched AIM120D, but even that would likely be assuming two aircraft approaching each other head on under ideal conditions with a non-maneuvering target.

I suspect the range of the ground launched AMRAAM-ER would be much more in line with ESSM - about 50km depending on launch parameters. Still a massive step up from the RBS70 though.

 

[ADMk2]

Just did a quick search on the amraam-er and the range is guesstimated to be out to 180 to 200km! If that's true it would be a game changer for the army.....

Max range, air-launched at altitude and likely fired whilst the launch aircraft was travelling at supersonic speeds...

But as was mentioned, this will be an enormous upgrade to Army's air defences regardless and when mixed with the likely ground based long range air defence / BMD capability to be acquired by RAAF (AIR-6500) and the 'active' C-RAM solution, plus linked to extant and future RAN and RAAF air defence capability, we are seeing a genuine step change in air defence capability for our forces and our country...

 

[ADMk2]

Formal announcement...

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au...ound-based-air-defence-system-big-opportunity

$2 billion Ground Based Air Defence System Big Opportunity for Australian Defence Industry
10 April 2017

The Turnbull Government has provided approval for the development of a Short Range Ground Based Air Defence system to improve protection for deployed personnel.

Minister for Defence Senator the Hon Marise Payne said the project is the first step in the development of the Australian Army’s contribution to the Australian Defence Force’s Integrated Air and Missile Defence Program announced in the 2016 Defence White Paper.

The Government will invest up to $2 billion in the system which will provide the inner most layer of Australia’s enhanced integrated air and missile capability. The capability will be operated by the Army’s 16th Air Land Regiment.

“A modern and integrated ground-based air defence system is needed to protect our deployed forces from increasingly sophisticated air threats, both globally and within our region,” said Minister Payne.

“Australia’s current short-range capability is 30 years old and due to be retired early next decade. The replacement system will provide improved protection for our deployed servicemen and women.”

A Single Supplier Limited Request for Tender will be released to Raytheon Australia in the first half of 2017 to develop its highly successful National Advanced Surface to Air Missile System (NASAMS) for the Australian Defence Force.

Minister for Defence Industry, the Hon Christopher Pyne MP, said the project would seek to maximise Australian industry content to ensure our defence dollar helps deliver local jobs and economic growth.

“Through a Risk Mitigation Contract, the Government will ensure there are opportunities for Australian industry participation, with direct access to Raytheon Australia for local businesses to showcase their abilities,” Mr Pyne said.

“As part of this contract Raytheon will hold workshops across the country to engage with local industry, giving them an opportunity to be part of the supply chain for this project worth up to $2 billion.

“Defence will collaborate with Raytheon Australia and Canberra-based CEA Technologies to look at integrating the Canberra-based firm’s radar into an upgraded NASAMS.

“CEA Technologies’ ground breaking phased array radar system has already been incorporated into Australia’s ANZAC class frigates and this project will trial the technology in a land-based role.

Through the Risk Mitigation Activity Defence and Raytheon will also investigate using Thales Australia’s ‘Hawkei’ protected mobility vehicle, manufactured in Bendigo, Victoria, as a potential platform for the system’s missile launchers.

Defence will complete a detailed analysis prior to returning to Government for final consideration in 2019.

Media note:

Stock footage of the system can be found here Raytheon Ground Defence Missile System - Defence Video Portal

 

[Boagrius]

Max range, air-launched at altitude and likely fired whilst the launch aircraft was travelling at supersonic speeds...

But as was mentioned, this will be an enormous upgrade to Army's air defences regardless and when mixed with the likely ground based long range air defence / BMD capability to be acquired by RAAF (AIR-6500) and the 'active' C-RAM solution, plus linked to extant and future RAN and RAAF air defence capability, we are seeing a genuine step change in air defence capability for our forces and our country...

Was not aware this was being examined. All in all sounds like good news to me - glad that a true layered, integrated GBAD capability is finally on the horizon for the ADF.

EDIT: Another interesting tidbit that relates to some of the speculation in this thread:

In collaboration with Defence and CEA Technologies, Raytheon Australia will also investigate the option of the Medusa system; an incorporation of Australian AESA sensor technology into the proven baseline of NASAMS.
“Medusa is the only system that can provide short and medium range capability using in-service ‘dual use’ AIM-9X and AMRAAM missiles, as well as AMRAAM-ER (still in development), providing a single system to meet both Army’s short range and RAAF’s medium range Ground Based Air and Missile Defence requirements,” Raytheon Australia MD Michael Ward told ADM in September 2016.

http://www.australiandefence.com.au/news/2-billion-for-nasams-gbad-system

 

[Jezza]

I found this rather funny......SA-13?????

Australia orders $2billion ground-air defence system - CONTACT magazine

The government has approved the development of a short-range ground-based air-defence system to improve protection for deployed personnel.

CAPTION:*SA-13 Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) is similar to the system that will be custom designed for Australia by Raytheon. Photo by Leading Aircraftman Michael Green.

 

[ADMk2]

I found this rather funny......SA-13?????

Australia orders $2billion ground-air defence system - CONTACT magazine

The government has approved the development of a short-range ground-based air-defence system to improve protection for deployed personnel.

CAPTION:*SA-13 Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) is similar to the system that will be custom designed for Australia by Raytheon. Photo by Leading Aircraftman Michael Green.

Yup. Think someone threw that in their for sh*ts and giggles... It was a WTF moment for sure...

I'm sure Raytheon and Konsberg would love hearing how similar NASAMS 2 is to a 6k ranged optically guided anti-air missile system that was first introducted 46 years ago...

 

[vonnoobie]

Just for some clarification, Most the new's articles I have read mentions us getting the NASAM and not NASAM 2. Is th at simply an over sight by the journo's?

On a side note when we do acquire it while I see the benefit of having one based upon the Hawkei with it being more manouverable I'd also imagine the RMMV HX would be considered as well being large enough to handle more missiles, C&C, radar etc (Not all on the one vehicle).

Although not stated as such but add in what the RAAF and RAN bring to the game and Australia will effectively have a missile shield in all but name capable of dealing with most any threat short of an ICBM.

Now curious what will replace the RB-70's (The NASAM is a replacement for the Rapier).

 

[Volkodav]

Just for some clarification, Most the new's articles I have read mentions us getting the NASAM and not NASAM 2. Is th at simply an over sight by the journo's?

On a side note when we do acquire it while I see the benefit of having one based upon the Hawkei with it being more manouverable I'd also imagine the RMMV HX would be considered as well being large enough to handle more missiles, C&C, radar etc (Not all on the one vehicle).

Although not stated as such but add in what the RAAF and RAN bring to the game and Australia will effectively have a missile shield in all but name capable of dealing with most any threat short of an ICBM.

Now curious what will replace the RB-70's (The NASAM is a replacement for the Rapier).

As I understand it Rapier is long gone, so this is a replacement for RBS 70. My recollection may be faulty but I believe Rapier was replaced ten years or more ago by additional RBS 70 firing posts, while RBS 70 was itself updated with an improved missile at about that time.

 

[vonnoobie]

As I understand it Rapier is long gone, so this is a replacement for RBS 70. My recollection may be faulty but I believe Rapier was replaced ten years or more ago by additional RBS 70 firing posts, while RBS 70 was itself updated with an improved missile at about that time.

While the Rapier has been long gone I had gone back into the 2016 DWP IIP and in section 5.27 to base my post off of.

The ADF’s current ground-based air-defence capability consists of
the short-range RBS-70 air-defence system, which has limited utility
against modern threats. The future ground-based air-defence system
will replace the RBS-70 with a short-range man-portable surface-to-air
system by the early 2020s, and will later be supplemented by a
medium-range surface-to-air missile system in the mid to late 2020s,
providing a layered air-defence against a broad range of capable air
threats. These systems will be matched with command and control and
fire control systems with high levels of integration to act as the inner
layers of the upgraded integrated air and missile defence system

It implies two separate systems with the NASAM filling the medium range requirement it still leaves the MANPAD requirement unfilled.

It is possible thinking has changed but have yet to see anything mentioning that it has.

 

[old faithful]

I found this rather funny......SA-13?????

Australia orders $2billion ground-air defence system - CONTACT magazine

The government has approved the development of a short-range ground-based air-defence system to improve protection for deployed personnel.

CAPTION:*SA-13 Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) is similar to the system that will be custom designed for Australia by Raytheon. Photo by Leading Aircraftman Michael Green.

So has 16 AD (air defence) changed to 16 AL ?
Not sure if all 3 services would be keen to share their stock of amraams either.