Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Volkodav]

But how much would they get for $1 billion? (BTW that seems an awful lot to upgrade them.. ). Judging from the Korean order, less than 18?

How operational are they now, I had thought by now with the French having operated them off a LHD in combat operations and the Germans operating them in 'Ghan things were finally looking up for them? I don't think we would be junking them.

The primary issue with the Tiger is the support side of the equation has been woefully inadequate. Australia is not alone here, the deployment to Afghanistan for instance required a herculean effort from, not just the operators, but Eurocopter as well. I have been told that there was no analysis of the spares required, they simply predeployed multiple examples of every part they had, filling an entire warehouse in theatre.

To bring the Tiger up to the required standard (support systems included) as well as meeting the evolving needs of the ADF is probably approaching the cost of a replacement. The required upgrades would likely also leave Australia with an even more unique, orphan version with even less commonality with other Tigers, further complicating and increasing the cost of support. This would make new build Zulus, or Apache Echos, bought through and supported by FMS, with the potential to hook into US spiral development programs, far more attractive than persisting with Tiger.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The primary issue with the Tiger is the support side of the equation has been woefully inadequate. Australia is not alone here, the deployment to Afghanistan for instance required a herculean effort from, not just the operators, but Eurocopter as well. I have been told that there was no analysis of the spares required, they simply predeployed multiple examples of every part they had, filling an entire warehouse in theatre.

Well that's pretty damming, on top of the other issues. I think many would be happy to see apache (with UK folding rotors) or Zulus in the ADF.

Surely after the issues with the seasprites we aren't going to try and update a small number of helicopters by our selves? The europeans aren't updating Tigers?

 

[swerve]

Since Eurocopter & its predecessors have been selling helicopters all over the world for decades, including to armed forces which have used them heavily, including in wars & overseas deployments, this is surprising.

How did this situation arise? When? Is it a result of armed forces not telling suppliers what support they need? Or of suppliers not paying enough attention to what customers tell them?

 

[John Fedup]

Since Eurocopter & its predecessors have been selling helicopters all over the world for decades, including to armed forces which have used them heavily, including in wars & overseas deployments, this is surprising.

How did this situation arise? When? Is it a result of armed forces not telling suppliers what support they need? Or of suppliers not paying enough attention to what customers tell them?

The Tiger's development history was somewhat troubled but I think the timing was partially to blame. The end of the Cold War further delayed development and led to significant cutbacks in orders. Add in the economic crisis for more woes. The troubles with the NH-90 didn't do the Tiger any good either. The support issue blame may be due to government cutbacks as opposed to end users and manufacturers. Two hundred plus Tigers versus around 1500 Apaches pretty much sums up the verdict on Tiger.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The Tiger's development history was somewhat troubled but I think the timing was partially to blame. The end of the Cold War further delayed development and led to significant cutbacks in orders. Add in the economic crisis for more woes. The troubles with the NH-90 didn't do the Tiger any good either. The support issue blame may be due to government cutbacks as opposed to end users and manufacturers. Two hundred plus Tigers versus around 1500 Apaches pretty much sums up the verdict on Tiger.

The AH-Z has ~220 orders itself, so wouldn't we be buying into a small number of an orphan platform again? Makes the Apache look like the safe bet.

UK has somewhat created a marine version of the apache. Wouldn't that be ideal version to get? Folding rotors, marine engines and tie points?

 

[Todjaeger]

Since Eurocopter & its predecessors have been selling helicopters all over the world for decades, including to armed forces which have used them heavily, including in wars & overseas deployments, this is surprising.

How did this situation arise? When? Is it a result of armed forces not telling suppliers what support they need? Or of suppliers not paying enough attention to what customers tell them?

The Tiger though is the first dedicated attack/recon helicopter that Eurocopter has designed, the other helicopter AFAIK are transport helicopters, or variants thereof.

Between this, and the long time it took for different certifications to take place for the Tiger to reach IOC, and that AFAIK the Tiger was entering service for a number of militaries which had not previously had attack helicopters in service, it might well be a bit of the vendor and end-users not realizing what was needed.

 

[t68]

The Tiger though is the first dedicated attack/recon helicopter that Eurocopter has designed, the other helicopter AFAIK are transport helicopters, or variants thereof.

Between this, and the long time it took for different certifications to take place for the Tiger to reach IOC, and that AFAIK the Tiger was entering service for a number of militaries which had not previously had attack helicopters in service, it might well be a bit of the vendor and end-users not realizing what was needed.

Most probably all the more reason to go FMS so they can hold our hand till we are up to speed, similar to what is happening with the EA/18G

 

[Todjaeger]

Most probably all the more reason to go FMS so they can hold our hand till we are up to speed, similar to what is happening with the EA/18G

I am less interested in the hand-holding, and much more interested in the ADF getting systems that are in production. It seems that the ADF has on a number of occasions gone for a European-sourced system, which on the face appeared to be available, but was actually still in development.

I have no problem with the ADF selecting a system which is in development, what I have a problem with is when it looks like the vendor has been overstating just how far along that development is. It seems that has occurred a number of times (MU90, NH90, Tiger, etc).

This, coupled with a commonality (or lack thereof) with the ADF's major partner in the region, would suggest that FMS should be the way to go more often.

 

[aussienscale]

The AH-Z would be a good option from the POV that they would be based up north in Darwin as the Tigers are at the moment, with the deployment of the USMC and their ever increasing presence will bring with it the supply and logistics required for the smaller sized fleet Australia would have.

Although the Apache is an on paper better option because of numbers produced, our location would still make it an orphan fleet in distance and support, also interoperability with the USMC and commonality would be a huge advantage

 

[discodave]

MSV for land 400

Does anybody have more details about the MSV?

Is MSV a placeholder for a number of combat engineering type vehicles?
i.e. M104, ABV, something I'm not thinking of?

Does anything similar exist based on an IFV sized platform?

 

[t68]

The AH-Z would be a good option from the POV that they would be based up north in Darwin as the Tigers are at the moment, with the deployment of the USMC and their ever increasing presence will bring with it the supply and logistics required for the smaller sized fleet Australia would have.

Although the Apache is an on paper better option because of numbers produced, our location would still make it an orphan fleet in distance and support, also interoperability with the USMC and commonality would be a huge advantage

Agree to what you are say in that our most likly partner would be the US, but when ARH was selected the US presence in Darwin had not been drawn up. That's not to say we will soley work with the US as has been demonstrated with working with the Dutch Uruzgun province on Op Slipper

 

[Navor86]

It seems that there are additional procurements (Abrams) under Plan Beersheba. Does this also include more attack helos or are 22 airframes regarded as sufficient for the new structure?

 

[Todjaeger]

Agree to what you are say in that our most likly partner would be the US, but when ARH was selected the US presence in Darwin had not been drawn up. That's not to say we will soley work with the US as has been demonstrated with working with the Dutch Uruzgun province on Op Slipper

By the same token, how often will Australia deploy or train alongside French, German, or Spanish personnel, who are being supported with examples of their nations' respective Tiger helicopters?

Australia is already in the habit of working with the US during exercises and regional/international deployments. The same cannot really be said about Australia having a similar sort of relationship for the other Tiger operators.

 

[Nick underscore]

Although the Apache is an on paper better option because of numbers produced, our location would still make it an orphan fleet in distance and support, also interoperability with the USMC and commonality would be a huge advantage

Fully agree.

I did say previously that I find it difficult to see an Aus govt ditching the current effort put in the Tigers, but if we decided to pull another SeaSprite Mk.II, then I would move to the Zulu platform.

The original debate regarding 'Armed Recon' vs 'Attack' becomes more palatable, when considering the 'choice options' between the Zulu vs. Apache.

This is just my personal preference and understand that the Apache is a more capable platform.

If it was found economically feasible to purchase the Zulu rather than upgrading/ marinising the Tiger, who would purchase our Tigers?

Hmmm ...Maybe NZ could do their own Seaprite Mk.II and turn these into a success story, by moving into Rotary Armed Recon?

 

[Raven22]

That's not to say we will soley work with the US as has been demonstrated with working with the Dutch Uruzgun province on Op Slipper

The Dutch flew Apaches in Afghanistan...

 

[t68]

The Dutch flew Apaches in Afghanistan...

Yes I was aware of that, my point was to illustrate that not only do we operate closely with the US, but we have worked and must be prepared to work with other nations which may or may not use equipment supplied by the US.

Interfet was also a prime example whilst the ADF was the lead in the operation and we did have a lot logistical support from the US we also had to provide the same to a number of other countries which supported the effort, from what I have been told their was a lot of problems in the logistics tail due to the difference in equipment, but by no means was this insurmountable.

 

[gf0012-aust]

and must be prepared to work with other nations which may or may not use equipment supplied by the US.

we already do... and a lot of them do not necessarily have US kit

the first priority is sharing info and acting on it in a meaningful fashion

weapons system sharing is nice but its not the delimiter - and all systems are considered against all the scenarios that they are likely to be used (ie the combat and capability vignettes)

 

[Goknub]

Given our quite punishing training regime it would make sense to source the airframe that can keep up even if it is less capable on paper. I'd be interested to know the difference in operating costs.

If we did jump across I'd imagine Bell could be pushed to sweeten the deal, perhaps a few extra airframes or simulators? Given the political risk they would have to offer something.

With the Tigers, I'd guess the options are: sell them to an existing user (unlikely due to tight budgets), gift them to NZ (but a few AH-1Zs would be better, ANZAC Vipers and all that) or give them to the Reserves with a small budget as a "war stock".

The public won't see this one coming and will want solid answers.

 

[Waylander]

I have a hard time imaging a government trying to explain to their voters that the not very old AHs are better sold and new ones of another type are bought.

Even if objectively not true it will smell of a giant waste of taxpayers money.

 

[t68]

I have a hard time imaging a government trying to explain to their voters that the not very old AHs are better sold and new ones of another type are bought.

Even if objectively not true it will smell of a giant waste of taxpayers money.

Yep no amount of spin wil cover that, unless the new buy is cheaper than the upgrade which has a budget of 1 billion USD, which works out to 45m per airframe

http://www.strategicdefenceintellig...dertakes_ahr_upgrade_air_87_phase_3_contract/