Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[old faithful]

Im sure this topic has been discussed to death before, but heres my 2 bobs worth again.
Although I dont like the decission,(to old and stuck in my ways?) I did instruct field craft to female officer cadets at RMC,1991, and a complete section of female warriors completed exercise TIMOR, which by anyones standards,(world wide) is very demanding.
It was my first real exposure of female soldiers in the field. I admit, they were slower than most of the male sections, but man, they complained 100% less!
The blokes were given a live chicken to kill and eat between 9, and they were judged on how it was prepared, how much was wasted.(they had not had a meal for about 48 hours, and had been given heavey boxes of Ammo(rocks) to carry through some really steep country. the Girls were given a fluffy white bunny rabbit, complete with red ribbon around its neck,...which was quickly broken by a starving female OC!
I was very impressed by the girls, they were stoic and well disciplined, I just cant get my head around having one or two in my section...
I think SF may find having a few very very useful however....

 

[riksavage]

They still have to succeed in the SF selection process just like everybody else.
Just because you open your combat units to women doesn't mean that your special forces get flooded with inept females which can't handle the tasks at hand.

We opened all occupations for women in Germany some time ago and there is still no woman in the KSK while several are in infantry, armor etc. units.
They still have to qualify which is a problem for 99% of the regular males, too.

And other mentioned it before. There are already women in combat related posts. I see no reason why not to open regular infantry slots to women when they are attached to line units in theater anyway. In reality there is not much, if any, difference between being a line infantry soldier or being a medic, engineer, FAC, dog handler, whatever attached to a line infantry company somewhere in Afghanistan or some other theater of operations.

Short or wars of annihilation where civi's and soldiers were killed in equal measure (Germany vs Russia in WWII) I have yet to see any examples of western female infantry ever being involved in a full-on advance to contact against an equally equipped fighting force.

To me there's no reason why a regular German Infantry Unit (not KSK) should not get involved in a Goose Green/Wireless Ridge style battle in future. Hard march carrying monstrous loads, limited sleep, freezing conditions followed by a full-on bayonet, bullet, grenade face to face scrap against a dug-in enemy. Waylander are you confident those serving women will step-up, keep-up and drive the attack home against an all male opposition with same amount of physical strength and determination as their male counterparts?

Reading some of the media reports I'm not convinced the Aus public is behind this decision to allow women to serve in front line infantry, it appears to me a purely political decision driven by politicians and senior officers far removed from the front-line.

 

[StevoJH]

As long as they can reach the same physical and mental standards as the men currently serving are required to meet I have no problems with it.

 

[gf0012-aust]

A broad general comment for all and for no one in particular

Can everyone have some consideration for the tone and temperament in their posts before they commit on the the enter key

Engaging in debate without going off half coqued and/or at each other is still a vital requirement on here irrespective of how passionate we may feel about issues.

It also adds weight and credibility to the discussion if it can stay agnostic.

 

[Kirkzzy]

Since this is turning into a bit of a $@!% fest with each side not budging I thought I'd change the subject to some "good" news.

Tiger Helicopters are now operational at night time!

 

[Suprah]

Tiger Helicopters are now operational at night time!

If someone sold me a car and the delivery of the headlights was "delayed" I wouldn't be too happy 2

 

[Waylander]

Short or wars of annihilation where civi's and soldiers were killed in equal measure (Germany vs Russia in WWII) I have yet to see any examples of western female infantry ever being involved in a full-on advance to contact against an equally equipped fighting force.

To me there's no reason why a regular German Infantry Unit (not KSK) should not get involved in a Goose Green/Wireless Ridge style battle in future. Hard march carrying monstrous loads, limited sleep, freezing conditions followed by a full-on bayonet, bullet, grenade face to face scrap against a dug-in enemy. Waylander are you confident those serving women will step-up, keep-up and drive the attack home against an all male opposition with same amount of physical strength and determination as their male counterparts?

Reading some of the media reports I'm not convinced the Aus public is behind this decision to allow women to serve in front line infantry, it appears to me a purely political decision driven by politicians and senior officers far removed from the front-line.

Well having seen and read the reports from A-stan as well as having met several women in the combat troops during my active time (interestingly much more in the mech infantry than in armor) I am confident that they would pull it off. You also have some sour grapes (inept males) where one wonders how they managed to become actual soldiers as they are for example so stupid that I wouldn't even let them have live ammo during guard duty at the home base not to talk of having them next to me in the field...

 

[rand0m]

Totally off the current topic but within the right area...

Are the MRH's capable of landing & bring stored on all of our Frigates? does anyone have further updates on the progress of the MRH's?

Ta

 

[Abraham Gubler]

If someone sold me a car and the delivery of the headlights was "delayed" I wouldn't be too happy 2

If you were buying a car of which only 206 were being built you would probably be willing to give them some more slack for the benefit of exclusivity. As compared to the likely car anyone here is buying of which your's is one of 10 million (or more).

Do you start to see how comparing the purchasing of defence products to the experiences of your daily life is completely pointless and misleading?

 

[icelord]

It is expected that some of the Tigers will see service in Afghanistan.

Who the hell are they kidding?!?
like the Govt would allow the tigers to leave Aust, unless we get invaded it will be long time before they leave the country...

 

[rand0m]

Who the hell are they kidding?!?
like the Govt would allow the tigers to leave Aust, unless we get invaded it will be long time before they leave the country...

Why is this the case? Why would we have these assets & not deploy them, then go rely on other countries to provide support to our forces? (Dutch & US Apaches)

Genuinely asking & interested in the thought behind it, not trying to start a debate.

 

[Raven22]

Why is this the case? Why would we have these assets & not deploy them, then go rely on other countries to provide support to our forces? (Dutch & US Apaches)

They might have to deploy them if some possible changes happen. Along with M777s.

 

[icelord]

Why is this the case? Why would we have these assets & not deploy them, then go rely on other countries to provide support to our forces? (Dutch & US Apaches)

Genuinely asking & interested in the thought behind it, not trying to start a debate.

There a lot of things that would make us more indepandant from Allied forces, yet time and time again the word coming back from brass and pollies is we need no more assets or troops in Afghanistan(im sure when they leave the ADF and can write about their experiences, the diggers will sing a different tune)

The french were the first to deploy the Tigers, and have had mild success. The US and UK Apaches are doing much better as they have experienced support crews who have been in country for many years and learnt many lessons. Much of what the french is learning is only just coming back to our birdies to look at.

For the ADF to deploy Tigers is a massive gambit, and one in which the Government will not make! i say this from experience and history to date.

 

[Kirkzzy]

There a lot of things that would make us more indepandant from Allied forces, yet time and time again the word coming back from brass and pollies is we need no more assets or troops in Afghanistan(im sure when they leave the ADF and can write about their experiences, the diggers will sing a different tune)

The french were the first to deploy the Tigers, and have had mild success. The US and UK Apaches are doing much better as they have experienced support crews who have been in country for many years and learnt many lessons. Much of what the french is learning is only just coming back to our birdies to look at.

For the ADF to deploy Tigers is a massive gambit, and one in which the Government will not make! i say this from experience and history to date.

Precisely! As why would we deploy Tigers if we haven't even deployed artillery (or even more shameful.. artillerymen, but not artillery for them to operate.. they have to use British equipment) or tanks for that matter? The government would not risk it.

 

[Marc 1]

I really hope you read this just to clear up your "facts".

Yep. read it. Don't agree with it.

You say that women make up 50% of people on earth.
Pretty close to being correct but it's irrelevant anyway because we aren't recruiting bulk parts of society. Included in your 50% are female children does that mean we should recruit them too. We aren't starving for people. Army actually over recruited and special forces units have a fresh pool of victims each course.

I think you missed the point of why I brought this point up. Women make up 50% of the people on the planet. In a traumatic situation a woman is more likely to confide in/feel safer with/ be better able to relate to another woman. This is why police or medical staff when they come across a woman or a child that is deeply distressed will usually ask a female officer/nurse/doctor to sit with the person/patient. If women are an integral part of an infantry unit - that process becomes easier. The chance of getting a local child or woman to talk would probably be better when they are asked by a woman than by a bloke. Recent deployments hhave been of the counterinsurgent type - more chance of interactions with women.

"women are better listeners" so you can admit this but not "men are stronger physically".

Nope, happy to admit that GENERALLY speaking women are weaker than men. BUT that's not the point of this discussion. We have already weeded out the women who cannot physically make the grade by selection standards, so your point is moot. My point still stands - generally speaking women are better listeners.

How many women do we see in Arab cultures? Bugger all,
Because culturally they are hidden away.

And why do you think they are hidden away? Because culturally women are not permitted to be seen by other men. Perhaps if female soldiers were to talk with the women (and lets face it they are not going to get far with the men) - the women would provide info that the men could not. Dunno how it works in your family or neck of the woods, but in most people's families that I know women know far more about who, where when than the blokes do. Women gossip, men usually can't be bothered. Women are possibly a better source of intel than the blokes.

So there isn't a need to have a lot of women to be those "listeners". We already pile a ton of female Arab speakers though the language school who are mostly useless on operations as translators as the men don't speak to them.

Well that's not what I'm advocating. I'm not seeking women in the military so they can be culturally inept translators. Blame the military for not understanding that culturally a woman is poor choice to be talking to an Afghani man.

But for you the combat multiplier is "listening", well better tell every military to start doing courses on it.

Most militaries are doing precisely that. It is an additional tool in the armoury they can use against the enemy. The cultural teams that attempt to get in with the communities - why do you think these teams are trying to do that? The bloke that is advising the US on much of this (Dave Kilcullen) was a subbie mate many years ago.

Pain? Childbirth? Give me a break. How many men have given birth? Zero.

Don't remember claiming men give birth.

Therefore it can't be compared. What we can compare is pain receptors and quite simply women have DOUBLE the pain receptors of men. And have a LOWER pain tolerance. Google is your friend.

However I concede, you are indeed right about this point. I have learned something today.

I'll point out again that I'm not against the rules excluding women from combat roles but I'm against the affirmative action and political push of women into these roles which decrease the capability of our troops.

In your opinion it will decrease the capability of our troops. So far you have not provided any evidence to support your argument beyond the fact the generally women are weaker than men. Which is not what we are arguing here.

 

[Raven22]

And why do you think they are hidden away? Because culturally women are not permitted to be seen by other men. Perhaps if female soldiers were to talk with the women (and lets face it they are not going to get far with the men) - the women would provide info that the men could not.

Fine in theory, although female engagement teams already do this (although it such a pain in the arse it is rarely worth it). However, in current operating theatres, this is actually a very good reason why women should not be in infantry units. How well do you think the ANA/ANP etc would respond to a female mentor? Not at all would be the answer. How well do you think local males (who comprise 99.5% of the locals talking to coalition) would respond to females? Again, poorly. You turn up to a shura with a female and I guarantee you that you will achieve nothing of value. The Taliban already call the coalition cowards for having females in uniform fighting with the men. This will only get worse if they are fighting alongside the men in the infantry.

Now, is any of that a reason why women shouldn't be in the infantry? No, of course not. But it is at least as relevant as an argument that women should be allowed into the combat arms because they are 'good listeners'.

 

[Cadredave]

Fine in theory, although female engagement teams already do this (although it such a pain in the arse it is rarely worth it). However, in current operating theatres, this is actually a very good reason why women should not be in infantry units. How well do you think the ANA/ANP etc would respond to a female mentor? Not at all would be the answer. How well do you think local males (who comprise 99.5% of the locals talking to coalition) would respond to females? Again, poorly. You turn up to a shura with a female and I guarantee you that you will achieve nothing of value. The Taliban already call the coalition cowards for having females in uniform fighting with the men. This will only get worse if they are fighting alongside the men in the infantry.

Now, is any of that a reason why women shouldn't be in the infantry? No, of course not. But it is at least as relevant as an argument that women should be allowed into the combat arms because they are 'good listeners'.

I have watched this debate with interest why because we have already gone thru it in the 90's,

We and I mean the RNZIR debated strongly that it would drop our standards, the guys would have to pick up the slack etc etc at the end of the day we need not of worried as the young women who have become Infantry Platoon Commanders or riflemen have only lasted a very short time in the battalions why because the reality of life in the Infantry did not stack up with the romantic version that they got from the recruiters. They learned real fast that it is a very hard life with no comforts like the over Corps.

However I dont agree with the notion that women should not be in the front line per se, in todays contemporary operational environment (COE) there is no front line regarless of who you are when you leave the front gate your on the front line. Women have earnt there place to be there you only have to look at the numbers of female casualties who have been in contacts, lost limbs to IED's, are suffering PTSD from the Iraq war.

Front Line is an old concept will a conflict occur again in the future between state on state maybe will the COE remain into the foreseeable future then i would have to say yes.

All im saying is life in the Infantry has its own way of sorting out those who are there for the wrong reasons whether they be male or female word travels very fast about how tough the life in the Infantry is. Ive seen it many times before when we have been sent back to A or B ech the look on the faces of the pouges both male and female says it all.

Not taking a crack at you Raven this is MHO only.

CD

 

[gf0012-aust]

For those who want to view the Linkedin original thread , PM me

gf

 

[Raven22]

However I dont agree with the notion that women should not be in the front line per se, in todays contemporary operational environment (COE) there is no front line regarless of who you are when you leave the front gate your on the front line. Women have earnt there place to be there you only have to look at the numbers of female casualties who have been in contacts, lost limbs to IED's, are suffering PTSD from the Iraq war.

While I never said women shouldn't be on the front line - they have been sharing dangers in operational theaters for a decade, and doing a good job - I disagree with your notion that there is no such thing as a front line. While in current operational theatres, there are no such thing as safe areas - you go outside the gate you are putting yourself in danger - there is a big difference between a female driving a truck down a road that might have an IED on it and being a grunt whose sole purpose is finding and closing with the enemy. That is where the front line is, at the point of contact. There are currently no females at that point of contact. Now, I've had female drivers in my convoys, female medics in my patrols etc, but when the shit hits the fan they haven't been the ones dropping packs and fighting through. The few times I've taken a female into the green I've made sure I've had my biggest, toughest grunts standing next to them.

 

[Volkodav]

While I never said women shouldn't be on the front line - they have been sharing dangers in operational theaters for a decade, and doing a good job - I disagree with your notion that there is no such thing as a front line. While in current operational theatres, there are no such thing as safe areas - you go outside the gate you are putting yourself in danger - there is a big difference between a female driving a truck down a road that might have an IED on it and being a grunt whose sole purpose is finding and closing with the enemy. That is where the front line is, at the point of contact. There are currently no females at that point of contact. Now, I've had female drivers in my convoys, female medics in my patrols etc, but when the shit hits the fan they haven't been the ones dropping packs and fighting through. The few times I've taken a female into the green I've made sure I've had my biggest, toughest grunts standing next to them.

Just an observation on infantry life breaking females, I find it also does quite well at breaking men too. Being one of the bigger (was a second rower at the time) guys in the section during my days as a rifleman in a uni regiment demonstration platoon (i.e. a used and abused training aid for the officer cadets), meant I always copped the M-60 or the AN/PRC-77 because they were scared of hurting the smaller guys.

Seemed unfair to me at the time, having to lug the extra weight and getting slammed in the back of the head by the ******** radio every ******* contact, but at the end of the day I never suffered the blisters, strains, sprains and stress fractures that afflicted many of my mates so I have to admit they had a point. Male or female you do need to be stronger, tougher and have more endurance than the average person to do the job without getting injured by the job its self.

That said I was no super star and was left for dead in BFAs by a lot of the same guys who broke in the field. CFA was probably a better indication as the guys who did ok in the field (including myself) would always finish those looking like a christmas trees carrying extra webbing and rifles hung over and stuffed in our webbing and packs or carrying the other guys who were struggling.