ASRAAM Config Change For F-35

[F-15 Eagle]

These are partner nations - not export customers. It's a huge difference.

If they have need for 6 internal aams they will get it.

Israel could be an export customer.

But isn't that the same thing? You know they could put up to 12 AAMs internally but I don't see the point.

Also another reason why the USAF does not talk about the 6 internal AAM topic is because it might hurt their goal of getting more F-22s(though their losing that battle anyway), they still have a requirement for 6 internal AAMs it just they don't want to talk about, I expect they will in 2015 though.

 

[Grand Danois]

Also another reason why the USAF does not talk about the 6 internal AAM topic is because it might hurt their goal of getting more F-22s(though their losing that battle anyway), they still have a requirement for 6 internal AAMs it just they don't want to talk about, I expect they will in 2015 though.

Agree that this could be a reason why the F-35 is talked down as an air-air fighter.

I just contest the viewpoint that because a peripheral is not needed by the US, then it wouldn't be developed or produced for partners and the export customers. The ASRAAM isn't used by the US either, yet we're discussing how it is to be integrated.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Agree that this could be a reason why the F-35 is talked down as an air-air fighter.

I just contest the viewpoint that because a peripheral is not needed by the US, then it wouldn't be developed or produced for partners and the export customers. The ASRAAM isn't used by the US either, yet we're discussing how it is to be integrated.

The U.S. does have a requirement to put 6 internal AAMs in Block IV or V F-35s I think, known as the spiral development process, LM even said so, thats the main reason why they brought up the whole 6 AAM thing in the first place, but they don't want to talk about too much, it might weaken the USAF case for more F-22s, it really wont make much of a difference anyway, there is no way the Air Force or Congress can ever convince the Pentagon for more F-22s.

Why is the U.S. discussing how the ASRAAM will be integrated if the U.S. will use the AIM-9X instead of the AIM-132?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The U.S. does have a requirement to put 6 internal AAMs in Block IV or V F-35s I think, known as the spiral development process, LM even said so, thats the main reason why they brought up the whole 6 AAM thing in the first place, but they don't want to talk about too much, it might weaken the USAF case for more F-22s, it really wont make much of a difference anyway, there is no way the Air Force or Congress can ever convince the Pentagon for more F-22s.

As GD said theres no reason partner nations cant have the 6AAM capability if its required, just becasue the USAF may not have the requirement. Its not "if we dont want it you cant have it", thats childish. Anyway as I said earlier the USN should be seriously interested in said capability considering the F-35C is set to be their primary air superiority asset for the next 20 years.

Don't let the F-22A export ban make you think that the Americans just have some repulsion to selling more advanced models of whatever peice of kit to their allies. Look at the F-15SG, much better than their strike eagle fleet, or look at F-16 block 60 or F-16I, both much more advanced than any USAF/ANG F-16's.

Why is the U.S. discussing how the ASRAAM will be integrated if the U.S. will use the AIM-9X instead of the AIM-132?

The USAF wasn't, a multinational company LM was who has to adress the concerns of all of their customers on this project, including ASRAAM users. The RN/RAF will probably be fliping the bill for ASRAAM intergration since they are tier 1 partners.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Considering that the multi missile ejection system is likely to come from the Danes (as they built and designed the last multi-missile ejectors), then it might not or wouldn't be a Lockmart issue anyway.

The US is already subbing design elements to foreign partners, so it's hardly an issue of "super secret" and prioritised US tech development.

A significant portion of the design elements has come from product and system improvement developments from the UK as well as other partners like Terma.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

As GD said theres no reason partner nations cant have the 6AAM capability if its required, just becasue the USAF may not have the requirement. Its not "if we dont want it you cant have it", thats childish. Anyway as I said earlier the USN should be seriously interested in said capability considering the F-35C is set to be their primary air superiority asset for the next 20 years.

What makes you say the USAF does not have a requirement? You or GD don't have any source thats says such a thing, if you gave me one then I will believe you but until then I find it ridiculous. Yes the F-35C will be the primary fighter for the U.S. navy for many years along with the Super hornet, but you also seam to forget the fact that the F-35A will be the primary air superiority fighter for the USAF too, the F-22 will support the F-35 but its the F-35 that will dominate the sky's for many years. The USAF does have a requirement for 6 AAMs, believe me if the U.S. Navy and partner nations get it then the USAF will be begging for too. I would expect the F-35 to enter service with the USAF in 2013 and get the 6 internal AAM capability in 2016.

As for the F-22, the production line will be shut down in 2009. Once all 183-187 F-22s have been built then its the end for making more F-22s. I don't agree with it but thats what is going to happen.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

What makes you say the USAF does not have a requirement? You or GD don't have any source thats says such a thing, if you gave me one then I will believe you but until then I find it ridiculous. Yes the F-35C will be the primary fighter for the U.S. navy for many years along with the Super hornet, but you also seam to forget the fact that the F-35A will be the primary air superiority fighter for the USAF too, the F-22 will support the F-35 but its the F-35 that will dominate the sky's for many years. The USAF does have a requirement for 6 AAMs, believe me if the U.S. Navy and partner nations get it then the USAF will be begging for too. I would expect the F-35 to enter service with the USAF in 2013 and get the 6 internal AAM capability in 2016.

As for the F-22, the production line will be shut down in 2009. Once all 183-187 F-22s have been built then its the end for making more F-22s. I don't agree with it but thats what is going to happen.

1. I didnt say the USAF wont have a requirement, I believe there was an If infront of it. i.e. If the USAF doesnt require the 6 AAM capability.......

2. The F-22A will be the primary air superiority asset of the USAF not the F-35, that is its primary purpose. The more numerous F-16 is not now, the F-15C/D is. Even at ~185 platforms, the F-22A will be able to provide air superiority in most theaters, or even a couple concurently. 350+ would be ace but I'm sure the USAF will manage. Deploying a single F-22A wing would provide ample air superiority capability to the theater they have been deployed to.

 

[Grand Danois]

What makes you say the USAF does not have a requirement? You or GD don't have any source thats says such a thing, if you gave me one then I will believe you but until then I find it ridiculous. Yes the F-35C will be the primary fighter for the U.S. navy for many years along with the Super hornet, but you also seam to forget the fact that the F-35A will be the primary air superiority fighter for the USAF too, the F-22 will support the F-35 but its the F-35 that will dominate the sky's for many years. The USAF does have a requirement for 6 AAMs, believe me if the U.S. Navy and partner nations get it then the USAF will be begging for too. I would expect the F-35 to enter service with the USAF in 2013 and get the 6 internal AAM capability in 2016.

As for the F-22, the production line will be shut down in 2009. Once all 183-187 F-22s have been built then its the end for making more F-22s. I don't agree with it but thats what is going to happen.

Hehe, I haven't said anything like this. That's why I don't need a source - I haven't made any claim that there is no requirement.

 

[gf0012-aust]

As for the F-22, the production line will be shut down in 2009. Once all 183-187 F-22s have been built then its the end for making more F-22s. I don't agree with it but thats what is going to happen.

The line will commence shutdown from October 2008 if no further orders are pending.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

2. The F-22A will be the primary air superiority asset of the USAF not the F-35, that is its primary purpose. The more numerous F-16 is not now, the F-15C/D is. Even at ~185 platforms, the F-22A will be able to provide air superiority in most theaters, or even a couple concurently. 350+ would be ace but I'm sure the USAF will manage. Deploying a single F-22A wing would provide ample air superiority capability to the theater they have been deployed to.

Tell that to the Pentagon who is planning the future fighter force. Yes 187 can do a lot but not everything. 1763 F-35s can do much much more than 187 F-22s. Today the work horse is the F-16 with over 1300 in service and now only 260 F-15C/D and 224 F-15E(160 F-15C/D remain grounded until they can be fixed). In the future the primary fighter will be the F-35(workhorse) supported with a few F-22s. When the F-35 program first started it was supposed to be a strike fighter only, now in 2008 the F-35 will still be a strike fighter but it will also be capable to do air dominance missions as well. As I said the Air Force wont admit this because the USAF might only end up with half the number of F-35s so they wont say that, but it is still true. There is no reason to think the F-35 will not be a capable ATA fighter, I know it will be a superb ATA fighter and the only fighter in the world that can even get close to touching the F-35 is the F-22. I can tell you right now that a force of F-22s and F-35s with provide the U.S. and its allies with a air superiority capability like never before.

Cheers.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Tell that to the Pentagon who is planning the future fighter force. Yes 187 can do a lot but not everything. 1763 F-35s can do much much more than 187 F-22s. Today the work horse is the F-16 with over 1300 in service and now only 260 F-15C/D and 224 F-15E(160 F-15C/D remain grounded until they can be fixed). In the future the primary fighter will be the F-35(workhorse) supported with a few F-22s. When the F-35 program first started it was supposed to be a strike fighter only, now in 2008 the F-35 will still be a strike fighter but it will also be capable to do air dominance missions as well (strike fighters by are fundimentaly capable of air dominance, therefore the F-35A~C was allways going to be capable in that reguard, thats the definintion of multirole rather than attack. ). As I said the Air Force wont admit this because the USAF might only end up with half the number of F-35s so they wont say that, but it is still true. There is no reason to think the F-35 will not be a capable ATA fighter, I know it will be a superb ATA fighter and the only fighter in the world that can even get close to touching the F-35 is the F-22. I can tell you right now that a force of F-22s and F-35s with provide the U.S. and its allies with a air superiority capability like never before.

Cheers.

1st, I would be very suprised if the F-35A isnt produced in 1500+ numbers. It is being used as the justification for halving the numbers of F-22A's to be produced. What wil justify cuts in the F-35A production line? Specially when F-16's and F-15's will be falling out of the sky?

Yes there are alot more F-35A's planed then F-22A's and they wil be the primary fighter, just like the F-16 is now, however they will be doing a whole variety of tasks like SEAD, DEAD, interdiction, CAS, (tactical strike), and counter C4ISR and air superiority. F-22A OTOH will be doing just 2, air-superiority as the primary (which includes escort and CAP) and HVT strike. F-35 will be the primary tactical strike asset in the USAF, F-22A will be the primary air superiority asset.

Even theough there will be 10x more F-35A's in the orbat, they also have (practically) 10x more things to do. In any theater F-35's will be going about "down and dirty" doing all maner of things, takeing out radars, hitting tanks and intrenched postions, destroying bridges, attacking lines of communication, doing anti shipping, hiting HVT's ect ect. F-22A's on the other hand will probably hit some comunication junctions or the like on the first night, and then provide air superiority for the duration of the campaign.

Its extreemly unlikely that the USAF would be deployed to a theater were at least 1 squadron (probably wing) of F-22A's are not, therefore the A2A capability of the F-35A will not be as improtant to them as the USN or partner nations who will be useing the platform astheir primary air superiority and strike assets. Therefore they may be the driveing force behind the 6 AAM capability rather than the USAF.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The line will commence shutdown from October 2008 if no further orders are pending.

I thought the money needed to shut the production line down was used to fix the F-15C/D fleet? I thought the desision on what to do about additional F-22A's has been left to the next administration. However they wont have much of a choice if the production line has begun shutting down before the ellection in November.

 

[Grand Danois]

Considering that the multi missile ejection system is likely to come from the Danes (as they built and designed the last multi-missile ejectors), then it might not or wouldn't be a Lockmart issue anyway.

The US is already subbing design elements to foreign partners, so it's hardly an issue of "super secret" and prioritised US tech development.

A significant portion of the design elements has come from product and system improvement developments from the UK as well as other partners like Terma.

I'd hazard a guess that EDO has more appropriate technology as far as the internal bays are concerned.

http://www.edocorp.com/AMRAAMAVEL.htm

Though Terma does ejector racks too, of course, together with... EDO.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

1st, I would be very suprised if the F-35A isnt produced in 1500+ numbers. It is being used as the justification for halving the numbers of F-22A's to be produced. What wil justify cuts in the F-35A production line? Specially when F-16's and F-15's will be falling out of the sky?

Yes there are alot more F-35A's planed then F-22A's and they wil be the primary fighter, just like the F-16 is now, however they will be doing a whole variety of tasks like SEAD, DEAD, interdiction, CAS, (tactical strike), and counter C4ISR and air superiority. F-22A OTOH will be doing just 2, air-superiority as the primary (which includes escort and CAP) and HVT strike. F-35 will be the primary tactical strike asset in the USAF, F-22A will be the primary air superiority asset.

Even theough there will be 10x more F-35A's in the orbat, they also have (practically) 10x more things to do. In any theater F-35's will be going about "down and dirty" doing all maner of things, takeing out radars, hitting tanks and intrenched postions, destroying bridges, attacking lines of communication, doing anti shipping, hiting HVT's ect ect. F-22A's on the other hand will probably hit some comunication junctions or the like on the first night, and then provide air superiority for the duration of the campaign.

Its extreemly unlikely that the USAF would be deployed to a theater were at least 1 squadron (probably wing) of F-22A's are not, therefore the A2A capability of the F-35A will not be as improtant to them as the USN or partner nations who will be useing the platform astheir primary air superiority and strike assets. Therefore they may be the driveing force behind the 6 AAM capability rather than the USAF.

True but if the U.S. Navy wants 6 internal AAMs then the USAF will want and have them too. I also thought the Super hornet will be the primary air superiority fighter in the Navy, but it looks like the F-35C and the super hornet are the same in terms of size, speed, range and weapons payload. Remember the the F-35 will replace at least the 160 F-15s that remain grounded, as you said it will be a multi-role fighter which means it will also have to do air superiority missions as well and a 6 internal AAM capability is a must have.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

True but if the U.S. Navy wants 6 internal AAMs then the USAF will want and have them too. I also thought the Super hornet will be the primary air superiority fighter in the Navy, but it looks like the F-35C and the super hornet are the same in terms of size, speed, range and weapons payload. Remember the the F-35 will replace at least the 160 F-15s that remain grounded, as you said it will be a multi-role fighter which means it will also have to do air superiority missions as well and a 6 internal AAM capability is a must have.

Theres no doubt that once the fancy levered double rail launchers are designed, tested and operational (and possibly paid for by the USN & partner nations) the USAF will have the system installed quick smart. After all who would not want the extra capabiliy considering that there is practically no penalty once the system is paid for? In real terms capability is driven by requirement, however the USAF will definatly be useing "clean" F-35A's for air superiority sometime, therefore they'd be stupid not to.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Theres no doubt that once the fancy levered double rail launchers are designed, tested and operational (and possibly paid for by the USN & partner nations) the USAF will have the system installed quick smart. After all who would not want the extra capabiliy considering that there is practically no penalty once the system is paid for? In real terms capability is driven by requirement, however the USAF will definatly be useing "clean" F-35A's for air superiority sometime, therefore they'd be stupid not to.

True, 6 internal AAMs just looks nice, I bet the USAF/USN and partners nations are dreaming about this capability.

My concern is are we building the F-35 fast enough? The F-15 fleet is falling apart and the F-16s could be next. I fear that if the USAF does not get new fighters fast enough then America can loose its superpower status and become unable to archive air superiority in the way they have for the past 50 years. The Air force even said this that "ether buy new aircraft or risk irrelevancy".:shudder