Arab Air Forces

[T-95]

I know there is a thread about the most powerful Arab airforce in this forum somewhere but nobody ever got to conclusion and just went on to say how powerful Turkey and Israel were (note not Arab just middle eastern with former barely so). Counting in training ,equipment ,manpower and tactics which is the most powerful Arab airforce? i hear the Saudis have some of the best equipment(Eurofighters, EC3 sentry, 175 F-15's) but have Pakistanis operating most of them.

T-95! Can you please explain starting an army related thread in the Aviation Forum. Thread moved to Land Forces Forum

 

[Waylander]

You are saying one shall not include Turkey and Israel when talking about Arab nations (Which is right) but than you go on with Pakistan?

 

[T-95]

You are saying one shall not include Turkey and Israel when talking about Arab nations (Which is right) but than you go on with Pakistan?

I said nothing about the PAF i was just saying the Saudis aren't a really credible air power seeing that a lot of their pilots are Pakistani. Nothing about Pakistan in my comments. If I had to say i would say Egypt's air force is the strongest by a landslide. It has both the man power and the modern war planes and they're training isn't too bad either.

 

[Waylander]

Arrrgh, shit.
Sorry for that, I missunderstood your post.
Its getting late and I should read more carefully.

cheers

 

[SABRE]

I said nothing about the PAF i was just saying the Saudis aren't a really credible air power seeing that a lot of their pilots are Pakistani. Nothing about Pakistan in my comments. If I had to say i would say Egypt's air force is the strongest by a landslide. It has both the man power and the modern war planes and they're training isn't too bad either.

the new Saudi pilots being trained by Americans as well as by Pakistanis are very good. I would have to say its because of the new generation of pilots who are educated & passionate about defence. I think some of the princes have also joined the Saudi Air Force.

The UAE air force is however very much dependent on PAF. If Pakistanis pull out, most of their infrastructure might collapse. Their F-16E/F & Mirage2000-9 are usually headed by PAF pilots appointed on lease, contreact &/or completely purchased (meaning giving them UAE nationality & keeping them permanently).

Egyption Air Force has good equipment but no where near the UAE's. UAE Air Force can perhaps even counter Egypt's numerical superiority with its qualitative edge. Nevertheless Egyptions are good at many levels (their pilotd also serve in UAE).

 

[webmaster]

This thread has been restored and moved to the military aviation forum as it primarily deals with Arab air forces.

 

[T-95]

the new Saudi pilots being trained by Americans as well as by Pakistanis are very good. I would have to say its because of the new generation of pilots who are educated & passionate about defence. I think some of the princes have also joined the Saudi Air Force.

The UAE air force is however very much dependent on PAF. If Pakistanis pull out, most of their infrastructure might collapse. Their F-16E/F & Mirage2000-9 are usually headed by PAF pilots appointed on lease, contreact &/or completely purchased (meaning giving them UAE nationality & keeping them permanently).

Egyption Air Force has good equipment but no where near the UAE's. UAE Air Force can perhaps even counter Egypt's numerical superiority with its qualitative edge. Nevertheless Egyptions are good at many levels (their pilotd also serve in UAE).

I was thinking that too but keep in mind UAE is less experienced in operating their F-16's than the Egyptians. The EAF has at least 12 pilots that completed 1000 hrs. in their F-16's. Also the EAF has 220 F-16's (upgrading all of them to block 40/42 standards), 20 Mirage 2000's and are discussing the sale of 40 MiG-29 SMT's with the Russians. That brings that total to 240 modern warplanes and 280 if the Russian deal comes through.

Also consider manpower-the Egyptians have no shortage of skilled pilots, while the UAE has a difficult time finding any qualified personnel, although they are doing significantly better than the Saudis who have a really hard time flying anything. But your right there are some Saudi princes, who are highly educated, joining the RSAF the biggest example being Prince Bandar.

Taking into account man power, experienced pilots, infrastructure and equipment I'd still say Egypt's the closest thing the Arabs have to a potent air force.

 

[contedicavour]

The EAF has at least 12 pilots that completed 1000 hrs. in their F-16's. Also the EAF has 220 F-16's (upgrading all of them to block 40/42 standards), 20 Mirage 2000's and are discussing the sale of 40 MiG-29 SMT's with the Russians. That brings that total to 240 modern warplanes and 280 if the Russian deal comes through.

.

I wasn't aware of this MIG29 SMT discussion between Russian and Egypt. Is the source reliable ? Such a deal would surprise me a lot since it has been quite some time that the Egyptian front line is 100% American (the dozen or so operational Mirage-2000s set aside).

cheers

 

[T-95]

I wasn't aware of this MIG29 SMT discussion between Russian and Egypt. Is the source reliable ? Such a deal would surprise me a lot since it has been quite some time that the Egyptian front line is 100% American (the dozen or so operational Mirage-2000s set aside).

cheers

Yes, i think the Egyptians did it as "political retaliation" for the F-15E's they were denied. The Russians are giving it to them at severely slashed prices in a bid to restore ties that were severed after the Yom Kippur war. I don't understand their decision either the F-15E is almost strictly an deep strike fighter with an A2A capability to defend it self while the MiG-29SMT is a plane built for A2A combat.

Also doesn't this present a logistics and training problem?

Sorry I can't post links yet but look it up on Yahoo! and Google. You'll even find a link to the a state owned news paper stating it (Al-Ahram). Apparently Putin and Mubarak were talking about it when Mubarak was making visits to China and Russia for assistance for the revival of their nuclear energy program.

 

[T-95]

Dose anyone know whether Egypt got tech transfers from America for their F-16 and whether their licensed to produce their own spare parts for the F-16?

 

[SABRE]

Dose anyone know whether Egypt got tech transfers from America for their F-16 and whether their licensed to produce their own spare parts for the F-16?

I havent herd of any such news & my personal opinion is that chances are very grim.

 

[T-95]

I havent herd of any such news & my personal opinion is that chances are very grim.

Thought so too. They could export such spare parts to Venezuela.

 

[radiosilence]

They could export such spare parts to Venezuela.

Why would Egypt do that ? They still receive 1.7 billion in aid annually.

 

[T-95]

Why would Egypt do that ? They still receive 1.7 billion in aid annually.

I didn't mean to say that they would. Of course they wouldn't but I'm saying its a possibility that might have led the US not to transfer such tech. Not to mention Israel probably objecting to it.

 

[SaudiArabian]

i hear the Saudis have some of the best equipment(Eurofighters, EC3 sentry, 175 F-15's) but have Pakistanis operating most of them.

from where did you get such false information ?

there are no foreign fighter pilots in the RSAF since a long time , otherwise proove it (and you can't because there aren't any)

same is for the maintenance and training crews whom are Saudis as well

the last jet fighter in the RSAF ever flown by a Pakistani pilot was the Lightning jet fighter , at that time half of the RSAF lightnings and probably skymasters was flown by Saudis while the rest half was flown by British and Pakistani pilots and that was many decades ago in the 50's and 60's ..

no Pakistani pilot ever flew other than the lightning

unfortunately most of the information on RSAF on English internet websites are either false or outdated and needs an update

King Faisal Air Academy , which is built here 38 years ago have trained lots of fighter pilots and maintenance crews .. now its not only training Saudi nationals but also its training foriegners .. in the last students graduated from it there was several foriegn students , one of them is a Pakistani who was trained in the Saudi Academy to serve in the Pakistani Air Force

if you see a foriegner in the RSAF then he is no other than a contractor for a foriegn company (like Boeing and BAE and the others) or a trainer

 

[Rich]

What is your connection with the RSAF?

from where did you get such false information ?

there are no foreign fighter pilots in the RSAF since a long time , otherwise proove it (and you can't because there aren't any)

same is for the maintenance and training crews whom are Saudis as well

the last jet fighter in the RSAF ever flown by a Pakistani pilot was the Lightning jet fighter , at that time half of the RSAF lightnings and probably skymasters was flown by Saudis while the rest half was flown by British and Pakistani pilots and that was many decades ago in the 50's and 60's ..

no Pakistani pilot ever flew other than the lightning

unfortunately most of the information on RSAF on English internet websites are either false or outdated and needs an update

King Faisal Air Academy , which is built here 38 years ago have trained lots of fighter pilots and maintenance crews .. now its not only training Saudi nationals but also its training foriegners .. in the last students graduated from it there was several foriegn students , one of them is a Pakistani who was trained in the Saudi Academy to serve in the Pakistani Air Force

if you see a foriegner in the RSAF then he is no other than a contractor for a foriegn company (like Boeing and BAE and the others) or a trainer

 

[SaudiArabian]

What is your connection with the RSAF?

some of my relatives are in the RSAF and other branches in the Armed Forces

i have some videos for the RSAF that i'll put in the Military Photos and media section , soon .

 

[Khairul Alam]

why doesnt anyone mention the Jordanian Air Force? they may not have adequate modern fighter jets but i think their pilots are very well trained.

 

[Khairul Alam]

can anyone explain the acute lack of personnel in the armed forces of the Gulf states? small population bases might be one reason, but that surely isnt the problem in the case of Saudi Arabia. i had once read a jane's article regarding the Kuwaiti airforce. it mentioned that there werent even enough pilots to man the 40 or so F-18s Kuwait had procured in the mid 90's. it said that pampered Kuwaiti guys showed no interest of joining up at all.oh pity pity!!!

 

[Izzy1]

can anyone explain the acute lack of personnel in the armed forces of the Gulf states? small population bases might be one reason, but that surely isnt the problem in the case of Saudi Arabia. i had once read a jane's article regarding the Kuwaiti airforce. it mentioned that there werent even enough pilots to man the 40 or so F-18s Kuwait had procured in the mid 90's. it said that pampered Kuwaiti guys showed no interest of joining up at all.oh pity pity!!!

There are several reasons why all Arab nations suffer shortages of trained manpower - some of which are actually social in origin. Kenneth M Pollack's excellent book "Arabs at War - Military Effectiveness 1948-1991" describes the reasons in greater detail than I ever could.

But using Saudi as an example, population size is a factor - but the main point here is education. Technically qualified graduates would rather rapidly earn their fortunes in the petrochemical business than slogging it in the ranks - and who can blame them? Saudi, given all the expensive kit it buys suffers more than most on these terms. Further, retaining those technically qualified persons who do opt for military service is another problem. Saudi Arabian Airlines for example offers huge incentives to qualified RSAF officers to resign their commissions and work for them.

Saudi does not conscript either, it has an all volunteer military which makes matters worse. The military must compete for skilled individuals on an open and very competative job market.

A social problem that effects manpower throughout the Arab world is also the popular view of military service as 'unfashionable'. Princes flying around in F-15s is one thing, but military service and especially service in the Army is judged the very last option for anyone here. Things are changing, but very slowly and Arab nations like Saudi, Jordan and the UAE will have to continue to rely on foreign personell to fill their ranks.