America vs China

[P.A.F]

i think some of you people should do a little more research on the chinese forces, their weapons and capabilities. no point discussing such matters with one blind eye.

 

[DarthAmerica]

i think some of you people should do a little more research on the chinese forces, their weapons and capabilities. no point discussing such matters with one blind eye.

Your post suggest you know something. Would you mind elaborating for the benefit of the thread?

 

[P.A.F]

Let me just tell u my personal opionion on a war between China and the US. i would say that if two such countries went to war then this would without a doubt start a World War. Why? well with 2 major world players fighting eachother, i wouldn't be surprised to see a world recession.
Both sides would face hefty losses. and thats the end of it. i'm sure u could work out who takes whos side.

 

[Big-E]

For all those that think China can sink a carrier, it is very unlikely. Don't underestimate the power of AEGIS and Lockheed's sonar suites. An American CBG is a tough nut to crack. It would take most of China's SSMs before AEGIS ships would run out of ammo to shoot on top of the CAPs that would be shooting at them to.

 

[DarthAmerica]

Let me just tell u my personal opionion on a war between China and the US. i would say that if two such countries went to war then this would without a doubt start a World War. Why? well with 2 major world players fighting eachother, i wouldn't be surprised to see a world recession.
Both sides would face hefty losses. and thats the end of it. i'm sure u could work out who takes whos side.

Thank you for that. Its analogous to the Management and R&D divisions of a major company had a fight with the assembly line workers and their union. Management usually wins and lives to tell the tale.

 

[Big-E]

Thank you for that. Its analogous to the Management and R&D divisions of a major company had a fight with the assembly line workers and their union. Management usually wins and lives to tell the tale.

I really don't see how this analogy applies to a WWIII. . . who would be management and win???

 

[hesidu]

i dont see how russia could help china at least not nearly as much as japan could help America we already have 17 ships their with a carrier strike group i also believe that if there were not so many restrictions being placed on japans military that they could become a major global power there navy is the 3rd largest and they are looking at buying f/22a raptors also i dont think the north koreans could be of much assistance to china, and with chinas navy their is no way their going to be sinking any carriers any badjers coming in would be slaugtered unless they had fighter escort and aegis cruisers would take care of thier ASMs

I also realise this. The problem I tried to solve out is how to prevent war between America and China. This is reachable in modern world, since America is not fascistic Germany. I am not afraid to confess that China lags America more than 20 years in industrial infrastructure, and more than 100 years in social infrastructure. So China should spend more than 50 years of learning before she can equal to America of this period. Technically speaking, China can't success in the military conflict with America, also America is not bulletproof. What we try to find out is the point of intersection where China's core interest is not harmed and not breach America's world wide stratagem.

 

[DarthAmerica]

I really don't see how this analogy applies to a WWIII. . . who would be management and win???

It doesnt, that was the point. The management and winner are obvious. Its also why I dont believe a conflict is very likely in the near future.

 

[Big-E]

It doesnt, that was the point. The management and winner are obvious. Its also why I dont believe a conflict is very likely in the near future.

Oh right lol. . . I agree its def not likely. . . but it's still the question of this thread and hypotheticals are the point here.

 

[P.A.F]

It doesnt, that was the point. The management and winner are obvious. Its also why I dont believe a conflict is very likely in the near future.

and if there is a war, it would be over tiawan. it's not as if china would sent its forces to america. it simply can't do that yet. americas aim would be to protect tiawan. to do that they need forces in and around tiawan. now with tiawan very very near to china's playground american forces would come under huge attacks. china would also face great losses but it wins if america fails to defend tiawan. thus america losses such a war. and visa-a-versa

 

[DarthAmerica]

and if there is a war, it would be over tiawan. it's not as if china would sent its forces to america. it simply can't do that yet. americas aim would be to protect tiawan. to do that they need forces in and around tiawan. now with tiawan very very near to china's playground american forces would come under huge attacks. china would also face great losses but it wins if america fails to defend tiawan. thus america losses such a war. and visa-a-versa

No there would be a winner. Today, the PRC cant take Taiwan by force with any certainty even against just Taiwan(assuming US political and logistical support). Factor in surged FDF(CSG/EAF), USAF/USN from Japan, Korea and Guam and also CONUS based assets and its a huge PRC defeat.

I'm not saying they couldnt inflict grievious harm on us, they most certainly could. But our system is survivable and redundant. We can take the loses and recover. They cant. In the aftermath the PLAAF/PLAN and possibly strategic rocket forces would be completely destroyed along with critical infrastructure like oil refining capacity, ports airports roadways and communications. A communist government with 1.3 billion people has to be smoothly run and closely watched to ensure control and harmony. The depression and destruction following a war would undermind their control and finish off what the DoD started. Futher, without their deterent, the PRC would be looking eye to eye with some of its regional rivals who would possibly make moves taking advantage of the PRC while it tries to recover. Bye Parcels, Bye Sprattys.

Gotta look at the big picture. Its almost a blessing in disguise for them to start a war now.


P.S. Also remeber the political fall out of the PRC INTIATING HOSTILITIES. The USN will blockade them and literally strangle the life out of the PRC before, during and after an attack on Taiwan. And because the PRC instigate the attack the USA would enjoy almost unlimited flexibility in response options.

 

[long live usa]

sure the PLA could bombard taiwan with missles to some sucess, but it simply does not have the amphibius tranports to follow up on the atack even if it did have enough amphib's it simply could not protect them from the USN,yet if they did some how land enough forces on taiwan the biggest problem facing US and taiwan forces would be supplying amunition and making sure the army of taiwan would not simply surrender

 

[DarthAmerica]

sure the PLA could bombard taiwan with missles to some sucess, but it simply does not have the amphibius tranports to follow up on the atack even if it did have enough amphib's it simply could not protect them from the USN,yet if they did some how land enough forces on taiwan the biggest problem facing US and taiwan forces would be supplying amunition and making sure the army of taiwan would not simply surrender

Well the PRC has two huge problems that are immediately obvious. The PLAAF and PLAN have very little capability to execute anti access strategy East Of Taiwan. And even if they did, they cant secure their SLOC or littorals from the USN or secure their critical internal infrastructure or leadership from the USAF.

 

[Vigilante]

How do you figure the carriers would be sunk? There is no Chinese sub quiet enough to sneak up on a CBG. AEGIS will shoot down any ASMs coming from Badgers and I doubt if they will get close enough to a Sovremmeny's Sunburn missles.

Nothing fancy...Nowdays most vessel are just targets in 1982 during the Falkland war in Argentina antiship misiles were use, the technology is old and it is not new that the soviets have supply the chinese with this tipe of technology....Keep in mind that you are not talking here about Irak or Aftganistan....

 

[thegoldenhorde]

The Golden horde's strategy/warplan for both sides

The following is somewhat biased toward the US. I am basing this on the condition that the US is out of Iraq and the Taiwanese army:taiwan does not revolt and welcome reunification. Read it, I put a lot of work into it.:type

Well, I've thought about this for a long time. China would be best served by simaltaeneously attacking Taiwan with a massive missle barrage and hitting Kadena Air force base and base facilities on Guam with ballistic missles and submarine launched cruise missles. (Unless Taiwan starts the war. Then the US wouldn't intervene. But if China is attacing first, then it cannot pass up the chance to hit American regional assests with suprise. Kadena might be left untouched because it is on Japanese soil. An alternative would be a large sub-cruise missle strike on Diego Garcia, severely effecting the US capability to deploy foces into the area.) China then would prepare its forces for an attack on a lone CBG, particularly the weak Kitty Hawk. It is closest to the combat zone and would be the first on the scene. If PACOM is foolish enough to tell it to engage the PLAN without another CBG or two supporting then there is a chance the PLAN could achieve a signifigant enough concentration of forces to destroy the Kitty Hawk of at least damage it and/or its battle group. The loss/damaging of a Carrier of a number of lesser ships would be a major blow to the morale of a US public already confused about why it must defend Taiwan. During this period the US would be using its assets on Guam, Okinawa and Diego Garcia as well as B-2s to make cruise missle strikes on Chinese beacheads/troops massing for an invasion/itinerant PLAN forces (depends on progress of Chinese forces against the Taiwanese.) The US woud also be sending as many carrier battle groups, subs and other forces into the area as it could.

At this point the strategy becomes a bit hazy. It all depends on how the Taiwanese are doing. If the Chinese are already in Taipei by the time the US has suffucent forces in the region to take the fight to the Chinese, the US government will probably decide to negotiate. Dislodging the PLA from Taiwan is not something any commander would relish. However, if the ROC (Republic of China) forces are still fighting and the Chinese are contained to a beachead, then the US will continue in its operation.

Let's say the US did continue because the PLA did not have control of Taiwan. The PLANs destruction would be imminent at this point, and it would be the USNs first target, especially its capability to reinforce its troops on Taiwan. Now, the US would go about hunting down the PLANs subs, supporting the ROCs army (and possibly US marines too) and conducting strikes against the Chinese mainland. The PLAN would use, and probably lose, its Sovremmeny destroyers and other modern ships in an attempt to take out a carrier. They would not stop the USN from turning the tide, but would inflict losses, especially with help from the PLAAF.

During this period there would be a battle for air superiority over East Asia as what is would be left of the ROCAF, US carriers and land based fighters took on the PLAAF. We all know who the winner would be. The US would take losses, losses it hasn;t see since VIetnam, maybe even WWII, but it would definetly win. There is a difference between air superiority and supremacy. The US would only have superiority and would not be able to hit the mainland at will. China's air defence is far too capable for that. Not to mention the fact that the PLAAF could swarm isolated strike forces with old Jians. So most of mainald China would not see the war. The US might "turn out the lights" in Beijing or Shanghai if it felt it had to make a point.

At this point there is very little China can do offensively. Its navy has been used up and its airforce has been (basically) defeated outside of China itself. However the US is still suffering casualties. Chinese ballistic and crusie missle still are fired at US ships and bases. The ROC is being supported by the best units the US has as it slowly forces the PLA off of Taiwan. This is where my vision of the war ends. I cannot predict what happens now. I have a few thoughts though.

China negotiates. It is allowed to keep the Pescadores as well as Kinmen and Matsu islands. Taiwan is declared independent. The US would start the negotiations with what are understood by both sides to be throw away claims, such as China paying an indemnity and additional territorial concessions to Taiwan. This allows the Communist party to claim major victories in negoiation. Taiwan would probably be recognized as permanantly independent, but if China came out of All of the stuff that happened above with more militray forces left than I predicted Taiwan might stay in its state of de facto independence. The US would probably agree to secretly drop a lot of things that bother the Chinese, such as hosting the Dalai Lama annd bothering it about human rights. However, the US would still be the big winner. It woudl proabaly forces China to drop its support for Iran, and let Central Asia be the US's sphere of influence, in addition to the fact that China's worldwide influence and military power is drastically curtailed. The peace would not last though. China would be resentful and would continue rising, except this time with a want for vengance, like Germany after WWI, except growing stronger instead of weaker.

The other option is that China decides to make the war truly globabl. It puts all the diplomatic pressure it can on Russia, Pakistan, India, South Korea and every other country it can to withdraw suppport for the US. The US would be feeling the economic effects of war by now. With Chinese products off the sheleves and oil through the roof, the US consumer would feel the burn. And if China retired behind its ari defence system, the US couldn't do much. Raids on mainland China would be too costly. All the while the US is loosing valueable planes, missles and (for a time) ships that are too advavnced to be replaced quickly. At this point, as long as the war goes on, the US will suffer more than China. China could start aiding the Taliban too. That would cause problems, even if US troops are out of Afghanistan. The US could raise the price of a continung war for China by making landings on the Chinese coast. These landnig would not be intened to take large parts of Chinese terriroty. The US would establish a beachead in a defensible area and expand it, until it had a small pocket of territory on Chinese soil. Then it would fortify and protect itself from being overrun. Done in economically vital areas, such as the mouth of the Yangtze, it would hust the Chinese. When the PLA tried to overrun the pocket, it would be hit by everthing the US had. The idea is the same as Khe Sahn. Intice the enemy to concentrate his forces then hit him with superior firepower.

I'm not pretending to be able to predict the future. This is what I guess would happen, based on my knowledge.

 

[hesidu]

The following is somewhat biased toward the US. I

I think neither China nor America wishs to conflict in Taiwan-strait, and Taiwan also don't wish to be a battlefield. Every side will make effort to avoid this war. So this war just won't happen, unless everyone has gone mad.

If there is a chance we wake up to find everyone has gone mad, then let's discuss how the war will goes. First, Let me clearify something important -- timing and borderline. When this war take place ? What is the scale of this war ? I don't think this war would take place in next two years. So it's not right to think China's military strength of two years later will equal with today , since Beijing is throwing money on the military modernization. The second thing must considered is the scale of the war. What scale of this war China and America wish to hold. If America want to make this war a region conflict, it must avoid touching mainland China's soil. If Washington step over, this war will surely be a full-scale war, and result in nake and chemical warfare(Since wars always go the worst way). If this war stay a region conflict, America can't cripple China's military capability quickly, this war will last long. Washington should estimate it's endurance.

 

[davidcandy]

If one assumes that Chinese strategists read books by old Chinese strategists then we can make some guesses based on Sun Tzu and others.

China won't act till all cards are in it's hands, there may be no battle. China is busy making friends with Australia, in 10 (or 20) years time could America count on Australia? Would Australia abandon it's best market for the US?

By the time China moves everyone will accept a Chinese victory because that will be the precondition for China moving.

I've always thought the Communists should surrender to the Nationals. That would throw a cat among the pigeons.

 

[DarthAmerica]

I think neither China nor America wishs to conflict in Taiwan-strait, and Taiwan also don't wish to be a battlefield. Every side will make effort to avoid this war. So this war just won't happen, unless everyone has gone mad.

If there is a chance we wake up to find everyone has gone mad, then let's discuss how the war will goes. First, Let me clearify something important -- timing and borderline. When this war take place ? What is the scale of this war ? I don't think this war would take place in next two years. So it's not right to think China's military strength of two years later will equal with today , since Beijing is throwing money on the military modernization. The second thing must considered is the scale of the war. What scale of this war China and America wish to hold. If America want to make this war a region conflict, it must avoid touching mainland China's soil. If Washington step over, this war will surely be a full-scale war, and result in nake and chemical warfare(Since wars always go the worst way). If this war stay a region conflict, America can't cripple China's military capability quickly, this war will last long. Washington should estimate it's endurance.

I dont think the conflict would be limited to just the US playing defence in the interest of Taiwan. The US would hit Guangzhou and Nanjing regions hard if we got decided to intervene. The strike may be limited to targets related to supporting the invasion attempt but thats about it.

The USA will not let China attack US Navy Carriers and not respond in kind against Chinese territory.

 

[hesidu]

I dont think the conflict would be limited to just the US playing defence in the interest of Taiwan. The US would hit Guangzhou and Nanjing regions hard if we got decided to intervene. The strike may be limited to targets related to supporting the invasion attempt but thats about it.

The USA will not let China attack US Navy Carriers and not respond in kind against Chinese territory.

If America strike China's land base, I think it's the entrance to full-scale warfare.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Why is this thread in the S&T sections? And further more, why are we talking about politics?

Locked.