ADF General discussion thread

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Talking politics here on DT is not usually a path taken that ends well, it’s a bit of a rabbit hole.

But having said that, I’ll throw my two bobs worth in, very carefully too.

In general, due to our preferential voting system, we end up with one or the other of the two main parties, Centre Right (LNP) and Centre Left (ALP), forming Government.

People might end up being ‘attracted’ to the policies of the more extreme/fringe Left or Right leaning parties, but ultimately their vote will end up in the pocket of the two main parties that form Government.

So.....

When it comes to Defence Policy and Defence Spending, it’s really only worth looking at the policies of the two main political parties and not being conned/fooled by what a minor party is offering, which will never become reality.

As for being a swinging voter, that’s something I can never get my head around, most people generally lean to one side or other in their views, Left or Right, mine is clearly not Left.

At the end of the day the election will be fought on numerous fronts, but if Defence is high on ones list, then I think the choice is pretty clear, very clear.

Cheers,
Yep talking politics is a tricky one.

Agree that the out come generally rests with the two main party's.
In the defence context both currently seem to be on the same page.

May not necessarily agree with the swing voter view, but that's just my opinion.

The challenge is when major defence acquisitions / capability's become political.

One of the standouts was Labors stance that we will not replace the Aircraft carrier Melbourne as an election platform back in the 80's.
Whether we would of or not is academic, the point being, each party had a different view going to the election.

Trust no major defence capabilities fall to political point scoring in the decade ahead.


Regards S

Ps "Left or Right, mine is clearly not Left."

Are you saying John that you are actually left of left? ;)
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Ps "Left or Right, mine is clearly not Left."

Are you saying John that you are actually left of left? ;)
Ha ha, very funny.

The L word is something that is definitely not associated with me.

I’ve always liked the old saying:

“If you’re not a socialist by 20 you don’t have a heart, if you haven’t given it up by the time you’re 30, you haven’t got a brain”.


But getting back to the subject at hand, the last time the Left was in Government here in Oz, Defence spending went through the floor, not one ship was ordered, etc.

Those facts tend to stick in ones mind.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
I read the other to understand politics you must be aware the right think the left are stupid and the left think the right are evil. So when it comes to defence the further to the left you get the more they paint anything military or defence as evil. The further to the right you get you think a retreat from defence spending is stupid.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I read the other to understand politics you must be aware the right think the left are stupid and the left think the right are evil. So when it comes to defence the further to the left you get the more they paint anything military or defence as evil. The further to the right you get you think a retreat from defence spending is stupid.
That is simplistic but reasonably close to the mark and depends upon which country you are in. In the FVEY it's generally true except in the UK and NZ where the right wing parties tend to cut defence for economic ideology reasons. Deep pockets and short arms.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
While labor definitely was against the carrier replacement, they did fund, organize and build Collins. In Australia the two parties aren't really anti-defence at their core, they just tend to spend in different areas, reflecting different philosophies. This is fundamentally different to UK and NZ, and more like the US.

Although there have been times when nothing happened or defence completely dropped off the priority or there were a series of gumby/weak defence ministers so projects withered away or sat in limbo. Gillards government was pretty anti defence and actively defunded and deferred projects that labor had started previously. Rudd was I think positive in a long term view, the defence white papers were quite strong, but Rudds administration struggled to capitalize on it in the short term, but that wasn't just an issue in defence, that applied to the whole spectrum.

The lack of ship building was terrible. As an island continent nation we should be continually building decent ships and subs.

Defence projects need to span past a single election cycle and past changes in governments. We have made progress on bipartisan defence on at least the nature of the projects. There is also an element of bipartisan diplomacy these days as well.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Ha ha, very funny.

The L word is something that is definitely not associated with me.

I’ve always liked the old saying:

“If you’re not a socialist by 20 you don’t have a heart, if you haven’t given it up by the time you’re 30, you haven’t got a brain”.


But getting back to the subject at hand, the last time the Left was in Government here in Oz, Defence spending went through the floor, not one ship was ordered, etc.

Those facts tend to stick in ones mind.
Can't argue with that John.
Well I'm well over 30 and moving to the left as I age.

Life is a strange journey.

Cheers and enjoy


Regards S
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
That is simplistic but reasonably close to the mark and depends upon which country you are in. In the FVEY it's generally true except in the UK and NZ where the right wing parties tend to cut defence for economic ideology reasons. Deep pockets and short arms.
Canada’s Conservative party has not been kind to defence on occasions. Some doubt the party is particularly right wing.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Canada’s Conservative party has not been kind to defence on occasions. Some doubt the party is particularly right wing.
As ngatimozart Pointed out, I don't think that being Right or Left wing has anything to do with whether they are particularly pro or against defence, But rather whether the political climate as a whole at the time is pro or negative towards defence. You only have to look at Australia and NZ to see this as the political climate in Australia is generally pro defence and in NZ negative to defence irrespective of whether a left wing or right wing government is in power, though I have to admit that Hellen took things to a new low during her time at the top but John K never made any attempt to correct her blunders.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
As ngatimozart Pointed out, I don't think that being Right or Left wing has anything to do with whether they are particularly pro or against defence, But rather whether the political climate as a whole at the time is pro or negative towards defence. You only have to look at Australia and NZ to see this as the political climate in Australia is generally pro defence and in NZ negative to defence irrespective of whether a left wing or right wing government is in power, though I have to admit that Hellen took things to a new low during her time at the top but John K never made any attempt to correct her blunders.
In Canada, wrt defence, left or right wing is somewhat fluid depending on which way the wind is blowing. In most cases, even in military crisis situations, our pollies know they have lots of wiggle room because the Canadian electorate are comatose when it comes to defence of the nation.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think you have to split being anti-defence with fear of big challenging risky projects. And if there is any money in the kitty.

Australia generally, has a project, then something gets acquired, or is attempted at being acquired. A purchase is signed off, and there is a serious attempt to actually get that capability. Doesn't always work, or work well, but there is a genuine attempt to actually get things.

Canada and NZ start to drift off IMO into the never never programs, where there are not serious acquisitions or extremely compromises acquisitions are made, and capability is quite happily left to evaporate. A program may be created, but there may not be any impetus to actually order and gain real capability out of it, or there is no momentum after a change of government. Sometimes a program just ties itself into knots and much much lower capability is perhaps eventually realized and sold as meeting the original intention.

Canada and NZ IMO can elect to be more insular. Australia that is harder to do, because ultimately the buck stops, and we either can't let it go, or it starts to concern Australia in different ways. Even during continental defence doctrine and being insular, Australia was heavily disappointing in finding out how and what that means in terms of the UN and what happens on the ground.

Most of Australia's defence acquisitions criticism, is:
  • we are either not getting good value for money - This is a perpetual discussion and could be healthy. We should always strive for value and efficiency. Programs with vague or indeterminant outcomes result often in poor measures of value.
  • They aren't happening fast enough. Which is somewhat connected to the former, but is a different point. Great value and capability are useless is there is a gap of capability, or late delivery. What capability sounded great 20 years ago, may be out of date by the time of FOC. Often this is based on poor planning/execution by the government, but can be managed through a project. The best time to plant a tree is 25 years ago. The best time to start a submarine program is 20 years ago and not stop it. Interim programs can cover gaps if you can see it early enough and have funds and resources to fix it in time.
IMO Australia needs to look at what it will be fighting the war in 2025-2030. Timeframe. Beyond that, sure plan and address and work towards, but the focused at some point needs to sharpen to the here and now. Keeping existing kit up to spec, sometimes you have to compromise a bit on your long term capability to get better here and now capability.

In many domains, technology is changing things, and its a guess at how fast. IMO the RAAF and the RAN have some programs that just not going to meet the threats we are likely to meet in the short term. The ADF might want to push other programs to improve the near future capability.

NZ, Canada and the EU nations generally seem to have a very low priority for defence issues. For the EU, the problem is complicated, there are nations far away from where threats are likely to come, and its layered under NATO, US, Franco/Anglo power. Questions about Germany handling its military threats. Canada has a similar problem, it doesn't feel there are threats it is likely to have to meet on its own, or even make significant contributions to, its role in NATO and NORAD is a bit confused or perhaps undervalued. NZ is small and far away, many feel any contribution would be limited at best.

The NZ thing I struggle the most to understand. From an Australian perspective, any NZ contribution is a game changer. A single platoon can make a difference and be significant. We are keen to develop capabilities in allies, or even mere acquaintances, because even a small contribution can have significant repercussions.

From Australia's perspective, China has our full attention and concern. I am not sure how other nations read the situation, but everything China does with Australia, it does get our total attention. It appears other countries have less intensive relationships and assess the threat very differently. All sides of politics in Australia basically acknowledge this, and voters acknowledge this.

Often this is assumed from outside observers that Australia will stand directly with the US, against China. This isn't quite the case. I think recent chaos in the US have Australians generally less pro about Australia being part of the solution here. While the alliance is strong, particularly with older Australians, realistically, in a Taiwan example, how and what will Australia contribute?


Australians see a conflict brewing, but one that is far from Australia, but likely to involve our allies and trading partners. People like Jim Molan think its absolutely imminent. Its the chaos before, during and after people are worried about. I am curious that those in NZ and Canada aren't concerned about those aspects.

Given recent developments in the past few years, the hawks seem to have generally been right.

Almost on any given day you can find some pretty disturbing news on developments.

I am always surprised such news does not seem to worry low spending western nations, like NZ and Canada.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I understand and agree with the thrust of the above and it’s easy to form opinions from afar however;
each country has complex industrial and political circumstances which can be both nuanced and not immediately apparent to superficial observation.
In both the NZ and Canadian cases, the influence of having a larger neighbour on or near your border has a huge effect on how the people perceive their security and this makes life difficult for defence. This is reinforced by history, neither country has experienced direct attack (apart from some small skirmishes).
We therefor live in hope that as the strategic competition intensifies (as the Chinese ascendency gains momentum and Vlad the Red becomes more bellicose) that the reality finally changes the views of voters in those two countries and national defence regains some priority.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Why hate on the lefties, I'm a lefty though more central. When debating it with other lefties I know simple way I put it have minimal defence and we will have to tag along with a larger power or increase our defence budget and capabilities giving us more say in what we do, where we do it and who we work with. Often works well.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Why hate on the lefties, I'm a lefty though more central. When debating it with other lefties I know simple way I put it have minimal defence and we will have to tag along with a larger power or increase our defence budget and capabilities giving us more say in what we do, where we do it and who we work with. Often works well.
I think left sometimes gets confused with ultra left ... the same happens with conservatives who are sometimes packed in with the far right. I prefer to consider myself centrist. Basically look after your people but be reasonable about it.

I think the discussion may be veering to a bit more of a political discussion and suggest we all (not picking on vonnoobie here) focus on the policies related to defence from this point on.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Extract from Pail Dibb’s Australian Article today covering Chinas threat to attack Australia in the event of any Taiwan intervention .


COMMENTARY


US must be clear to China: hit an ally and we hit back


12:00AM JULY 06, 2021


The editor of Beijing’s Global Times – which belongs to the Chinese Communist Party’s People’s Daily – has threatened Australia with “retaliatory punishment”, with missile strikes “on the military facilities and relevant key facilities on Australian soil”, if we send Australian Defence Force troops to assist the US and participate in war with the People’s Liberation Army over Taiwan.


The specific threat made by editor Hu Xijin on May 7 is: “China has a strong production capability, including producing additional long-range missiles with conventional warheads that target military objectives in Australia when the situation becomes highly tense.” It is remarkable that such a blatant threat has received so little attention by the Australian media.


The key phrase used by the Global Times is “long-range missiles with conventional warheads”. But, even with sophisticated intelligence methods, it can be virtually impossible to detect reliably the difference between an incoming missile with a conventional warhead from one with a nuclear warhead. This is made more difficult by the fact China co-mingles conventional with nuclear warheads in its theatre missile forces. But why the emphasis on conventional? It may be aimed at reassuring the US that China will not be attacking Australia with nuclear weapons.


However, Beijing is not only careless about how Washington might be prevailed on to accept the difference between conventional and nuclear long-range missile strikes. There is the additional problem that some of what China terms the “relevant key facilities on Australian soil” would be critical for US understanding of the nature of such a conflict and whether escalation could be controlled. For example, taking out the joint US-Australian intelligence facility at Pine Gap might be seen in Washington as an attempt to blind any warnings of deliberate nuclear escalation by Beijing.


In the Cold War, this sort of danger was well understood. In my experience in the late 1970s and ’80s, Moscow made it clear to us that attacks on Pine Gap, Nurrungar and North West Cape would occur in the context of an all-out nuclear war.


The Soviet leaders knew that blinding Washington in the early stages of a nuclear exchange would be a foolish act, not helping the continuing existence of any post-nuclear Soviet Union.


The problem with Beijing is that it does not seem to see any benefit in detailed discussions about high-level nuclear arms negotiation with any other country. It does not understand the value of detailed discussions about nuclear warfighting. This is a dangerous gap in Chinese understanding about war – especially as its strategic nuclear warheads, which number “in the low 200s” according to the Pentagon, are barely credible as a second-strike capability.


However, US estimates suggest China is planning to double its strategic nuclear forces in the near future and The Weekend Australian last Saturday has reported that Beijing is building more than 100 new silos for intercontinental ballistic missiles in the northwest of the country. All this suggests movement away from a minimum nuclear deterrent force.


By comparison, the US has 1500 deployed strategic nuclear warheads and another 5000 or so stockpiled or retired. (Russia has a similar number of strategic nuclear warheads totalling about 6800.) However, Beijing has about 2000 theatre missiles capable of targeting much of the Indo-Pacific. Most of these are nuclear-armed but some of its conventionally armed theatre missiles already can target the north of Australia.


Video: China needs to be ‘publicly shamed’ by international community in order to get answers


The main point here for Australia is that unless we acquire extremely long-range missiles, we will not be able to retaliate against any attack on us. In any case, for a country our size to consider attacking a large power such as China is not a credible option.


So, resolving the threat posed by the Global Times depends on the US making it clear to Beijing that any missile attack on Australia as the US’s closest ally in the Indo-Pacific region would provoke an immediate response by Washington on China’s territory.


The US has an overwhelming superiority in being able to deliver prompt global conventional precision strikes.


Beijing also needs to understand that because of the density and geographical distribution of its population it is the most vulnerable among continental-size countries to nuclear war. The virtual conurbation that extends from Beijing in the north to Shenzhen in the south would make it particularly susceptible to massive destruction in an all-out nuclear war. China would no longer exist as a functioning modern society.


Video: Xi Jinping's recent speech 'points to an ever more controlling' Chinese Communist Party


As far as Australia is concerned, the growing torrent of threats and bullying from Beijing mean we need to have a much clearer understanding from our US ally about extended deterrence, including not just nuclear deterrence but also conventional deterrence against Chinese long-range theatre missiles with conventional warheads.


Moreover, the time is rapidly approaching for us to consider acquiring a missile system capable of defending us against ballistic missile attack. The first step could be to fit this capability to the air warfare destroyers, while noting that a nationwide capability would need to be much more extensive.


When marking the 100th anniversary of the Chinese Communist Party last Thursday, Xi Jinping made the facile claim that the Chinese nation does not carry aggressive traits “in its genes”. However, we cannot rely on the words of a communist dictator such as Xi. In the final analysis, we depend on the US – as the only military superpower in the world – to deter China from escalation dominance and its threatened use of ballistic missiles against us.


Paul Dibb is emeritus professor of strategic studies at the Australian National University. He is a former deputy secretary of the Department of Defence and a former director of the Defence Intelligence Organisation.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Sorry hit the send button a bit early. Why don’t we just develop or buy a ballistic missile capability? Probably cheaper than a missile shield or a bomber fleet.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Chinese threats as per post #1356 are the reason countries see nuclear weapons as an option. Iran and NK are examples that see this as a defensive major against the US. Then the question becomes “how badly does conventional defence have to fail” before the nuclear trigger is pulled?
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
It's why the 2020 DWP has financing set aside for a ballistic missile protection capability, maybe should be brought forward at least investigating our possible options etc.

In any case it really isn't news, if we deploy forces to defend Taiwan then common sense dictates that china will respond in kind.

IMHO it won't come down to having to outright defeat the Chinese forces but rather outlast their strategic resource reserves. Being so heavily reliant on imports of various resources, a large amount from Australia puts them in the difficult position of having to win a war very quickly and get peace just as quickly or else their economy and by extension their military will collapse.

China using bullying and economic coercion to get their way is a problem, china threatening to launch conventional missiles against a nation potentially at war with them is to be expected.
 
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