A New Blueprint in the Persian Gulf

[Ozzy Blizzard]

You were doing all right there until this statement. Is that "every single time" or are there, like, a few times we haven't gotten to yet? I suppose we are supposed to give everyone there an opportunity to carry a bomb on their person unopposed eh?

Let me ask you something? Have you ever been to Iraq?

And the reason I didn't read your original post was because I was in a hurry. lately Ive been having 10 mins a day in front of this computer and I dont like being hasty with the positions I take.



What did they die for in all the other pasts conflicts? If you've never been in military service I will tell you the only thing men die for in war. They "die for" each other. That's it! They dont die for ideas, or strategy, or grand delusions. They simply live or die for each other.

And Ozzie you blather on about Yank casualties as if they keep you up at night, "Australia has had like 1 KIA in Iraq correct"? Somehow I doubt the blood of the Yank kids has you missing any meals. They are simply a convenient way for you to strengthen your anti-Iraq views, or other Political agendas. So spare me the whining and condescension. Ive already outlined the strategy behind the Iraqi operation, tho you know that.

Really mate, you sound like a bloody screeching Liberal. Somehow you Liberals, as they always do, attach my assessment on strategy to my personal views. I may not be an Iraq expert like Ozzie but I gave us, at best, a 50%-50% chance of installing Democracy in Iraq. I actually thought it best we simply installed our own Dictator as a backup plan.

Oh gosh, I guess the Great Ozzie is now going to lecture me about morality.

Actually i vote conservative, but that doesn't mean my veiws on the war are dictated by what political party i vote for. And we dont have any KIA in iraq, Pvt Jake Kovko was killed by an accidental discharge, and we've lost 5 men on PSD, but the blood of "yank kids" does keep me up at night, as much as iraqi civililans, cus belive it or not the fact that i am an australian citizen doesn't mean i loose the power of empathy for people who hold a different passport. Rich i dont remember commenting on your personal views, apart from on statagy and the MORAL JUSTIFICATION you used for the war in iraq, which you outlined above. I dont pretend to know a single thing about you apart from what you've posted, yet you seem to know my political views, when all i've done is anylise the facts which you have yet to rebut. Of course the "men in the trenches" are fighting for each other, your avoiding the point, which is why they are there in the first place. Should US personell stop searching iraqie civilians? No, that would probably compromise security, but there still helping the insugency every time it happens. Kind of a pickle that one huh? i thought a debate was a respectfull exchange of idea's and opinions, yet you've just made personal attacks on my percieved political stance (which doesn't have anything to do with my analysis of the war, belive it or not), and made sarcastic comments, but this is just a sign of a weak argument. So rich, why dont we have a respectfull debate over the facts without personal attacks, or maybe your argument has more to do with your political belifes than the reality of the situation, hense your posts that are light on factual anylisis and heavy on emotional rehtoric?

 

[dioditto]

I gave us, at best, a 50%-50% chance of installing Democracy in Iraq.

Haha. "Installing" democracy. Like Cha-ching! Plug-and-play Yo!

I just find it extremely hilarious how conservatives view the democracy....(and that's how democracy is installed in 2000)

 

[Rich]

Rich i dont remember commenting on your personal views, apart from on statagy and the MORAL JUSTIFICATION you used for the war in iraq, which you outlined above.

Yeah, actually you did, "see below". And If I need to remind you this is a room that concerns itself about "strategy". We are supposed to talk about strategy here not go into tirades about "moral justifications" and personal political opinions.

Rich you dont have to read it mate. But the fact is if you did you would see all the moral justifications and arguments made by you and many others in support of the war have absoloutly no grounding in reality. So, was 3000 US lives worth it? How about 30 000 mamed by IEDs and small arms? Or how about the 100 000+ iraqies? You cant even tell me what they died for! Yet you rattle out rhetoric that has nothing to do with the current situation, because you cant argue the facts. But maybe i'm wrong, so you explain to me Rich, tell me why it is worth 1 Australian citizen, not to mention the young americans who are dying every day. you tell me rich, what are they dieing for?

And of course merocain jumps in with his A-typical twisting of facts, from so oh-so-perfect land of Frenchmen, to take yet another opportunity to bash the Yanks. I get a kick out of the French actually, they walk around like the perfect little world citizens. First they sold the Jews their nuke reactor, Then they sold Saddam his, they and the Germans provided the building blocks for Iran's program, they sold reactors to South Africa and China, giving both programs a great boost. The only reason there are nukes in the MidEast is because the French helped the Israelis immeasurably in developing them.http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/israel/nuke.html

The French were the main western financiers of Saddams military. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_sales_to_Iraq_1973-1990 most of all during his war with Iran. They were chomping at the bit to rearm him after Gulf-1, damn the sanctions. Think about it? What modern war didn't have French mirages flying in it? And now they are chomping at the bit to sell arms to China.

The Frenchies are the biggest arms supplier to Africa. They had a deep hand in the spark that led to the Rwandan genocide, indeed were the main supplier of arms to the Hutu militants who went on the rampage against their Tutu neighbors. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...an17.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/17/ixworld.html

I could go on and on, the French have a history of arming the worst types in the world, as long as they have cash to carry. Thats why I get such a kick when Merocaine goes on one of his anti-Yank rants. And its always funny to hear a Frenchman talk about "Democracy" in such a way. They would still be licking Nazi boots if others hadn't died to replant the "flower" back on French soil.

I like it, the seed of democracy in a troubled region.... That’s beautiful; it’s like the history of US policy in the Middle East written by the First Lady. You seem to live in a fantasy world Rich, American actions have bolstered every Authoritarian regime in the Middle East, they can all point at Iraq and say why would we want that! And given Al Queada the breathing space they needed.

And no Ozzie, I dont think your losing any sleep over it. I just think their deaths and injuries provide convenient fodder for your views. I served under arms in the MidEast and I sure as hell dont need you to lecture me about it. Or about death, cause Ive seen plenty of it.

If this thread goes back to strategy I'll return to it. If not then mail your views to George Bush. I didn't create the strategy, I'm just trying to understand it and explain it.

And use a spellchecker both of you. Your spelling sucks!

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Actually merocaine is Irish, like dublin Ireland. (I dont know why everyone thinks he's frenchnfloorl: ) So most of that post just irellevant "french bashing". And the quote you used was in direct response to the first paragraph. It had nothing to do with me atempting to anylise your politicall views. See below where you ask "was it worth those lives" rhetorically. I simply asked you to answer that question, and you still cant.

What is worth those Lives? Was the freedom of western Europe worth all the Yank $$, and constant threat of armageddon? Even if the Soviets over ran west Europe how could they have still threatened us? Or our Hemisphere? Was Vietnam worth it? Korea? Why did we care? And why do Europeans always say we are fighting for a big "nothing"?

Why did we care that Saddam made us all look like fools and weaklings with his 10 years of WMD shell games? Obstructing inspectors? Violating every UN resolution against him? Attempting to assassinate a former President visiting Kuwait? I mean who really gives a damn?

And why should we give a damn about installing the seed of Democracy in a troubled region which will know no peace until such freedoms flourish? Why should we care about surrounding and checkmating the terrorist supporting states whos support has caused the murder of our citizens for 40 years on-going?

I mean nobody else really cares right? Except for a few of our brave friends in the world. Why should any of us care about such hostile Dictatorships/terror supporting states developing nuclear weapons? Its going to have to be our children who will be at most risk in the future probably after were all dead.

You started this debate with the claims you made for the moral justification for the war, which can be seen above. All i did is rebutt those claims with a logical argument based on evidence and facts. Every post you have writen since then has been disrespectfull, irellevent and petty. Even after you made sarcastic remarks toward me and my percieved political views i simply challanged you to a respectfull debate over the facts, but you still dance arround the argument commenting on peoples spelling! You say you have served in the Middle east and "dont need to be lecured on it", fine then share some of that experiance in an argument to rebut mine. But you cant, because you dont have a logical argument, just empty rhetoric that supports your political views. If you are a middle aged veteran of a lifetime of military service, then act like one. Your behaving like an immature, pissed off, 16yr old who doesn't like the fact that he's lost an argument and isnt going to participate any more. Cant you handle your statements or views being challenged by someone younger than yourself? All you have done is made personal attacks attempted to "pull rank" with your "i served in the military, i served in the middle east" crap. Normally i would respect you more for that, but you've just used it in a petty attempt to discredit my argument. So dont go making claims like the ones you did above if your not willing to discuss the merits of those claims. Since its pretty clear to me that any attempt at an informed debate with you is an exercise in feutility, i wont bother any more.

 

[Galrahn]

No that Ozzy and Rich have worked out their political differences, I'd like to get back to the original post....

Does anyone else see yet what I am talking about, the sense of change taking place? I get the feeling that with the new leadership, everything is on the table. Sitting down with Iran at the upcoming conference is evidence of this, something that never would have happened under Rumsfeld.

I think it is the right approach, because when your holding aces (the US military) you have nothing to lose by playing every other card in the deck first.

 

[radiosilence]

I support the idea of talking to Iran and Syria but i am just curious as to what it would take for them to play ball with the US in Iraq. A stable Iraq is in their best interests however i am not sure that alone will convince them to cooperate. Its obvious that threatening them with the use military force hasn't stop them from meddling in Iraq. Does the US have to give them security guarantees?

 

[Rich]

If you are a middle aged veteran of a lifetime of military service, then act like one. Your behaving like an immature, pissed off, 16yr old who doesn't like the fact that he's lost an argument and isnt going to participate any more.

In The post you quoted, boyo, I was asking rhetorical questions. My intent was to get "other" to answer them, "I guess that was above you".

What exactly was the argument again?

.

Cant you handle your statements or views being challenged by someone younger than yourself? All you have done is made personal attacks attempted to "pull rank" with your "i served in the military, i served in the middle east" crap. Normally i would respect you more for that, but you've just used it in a petty attempt to discredit my argument. So dont go making claims like the ones you did above if your not willing to discuss the merits of those claims. Since its pretty clear to me that any attempt at an informed debate with you is an exercise in feutility, i wont bother any more.

How in Hell am I supposed to know how old you are?

What personal attack?

Nobody discredited anything, well maybe you did.

What claims?

feutility

Your spelling sucks.

Your the one who turned this thread into your personal Iraq crusade.

Ozzy your an OK guy, but quite an excitable little fellow. Merocaine isn't French? Really? He's Irish? Well I feel bad about that then, I mean posting about all of Frances sins in the world. Give me a little time and I'll dig up some Irish ones.

Does anyone else see yet what I am talking about, the sense of change taking place? I get the feeling that with the new leadership, everything is on the table. Sitting down with Iran at the upcoming conference is evidence of this, something that never would have happened under Rumsfeld.

I'm not sure Rumsfeld had anything to do with it. The truth is we've been speaking unofficially to Iran for a lot of years. Decades even. Its actually a smart move for both of us. Bush gets marks for looking like he's trying to stabilize the situation thru Political means, and #2, The Iranians gain time to finish their bomb thru diplomacy on the North Korean model of start, stop, start stop. With their hedge being the Iraq insurgency where they hold many cards. Really, Iran is in a far stronger position then North Korea is. Most of all from their oil and NG reserves.

Now that we've botched up the occupation of Iraq the Iranians know they simply have to stall for time until the next US elections when , very possibly, a new US President begins a pull out of troops that will open even more opportunities for the Iranians to increase their regional hegemony.


Anyway, thats my take on their strategy.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Can we get the personal disagreements shifted to the PM side of the ledger.

 

[merocaine]

post deletion

 

[eckherl]

Rich and Merocaine

Please take gf0012-aust advice before they pull the plug on this one.

 

[Rich]

Rich and Merocaine

Please take gf0012-aust advice before they pull the plug on this one.

Agreed.