A few MBT related questions

Waylander

Defense Professional
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At least East German tankers (T-55 and T-72) weren't chosen because of their height. They put everybody into them from 160 to 190+ centimeters.

I remember we had a pretty long and interesting conversation about the ability of russian tank designs to avoid hits due to their smaller silouette.

My opinion and that from several other was that such a small design has pros and cons of which hit avoidance is a minor pro if at all.

As for the other pros.
With a smaller tank one needs less armor to get the same protection over a given arc.
And overall weight can be kept down which has impact on bridge crossing capabilities but not so much on cross country performance as this is much more dependant on a good suspension, soil pressure per cm² and hp per ton.

The negatives are, as mentioned before, a cramped interior which degrades combat effectiveness, especially over a longer period as well as problems with upgrading the tank. The electronics also get problems in hot environments due to the small space in which they are located.
Another problem is gun depression. The low turret reduces the possible gun depression. Not only does this limit the number of usable fighting positions it also limits the ability to hit targets while moving over rough ground. This is IMO much more of a setback. The most limitiung factor these days is not the FCS. Modern FCS have no problem with engagements where both sides are moving but they are useless if the gun hits the maximum depression regularly during a cross country ride. I had never problems with hitting anything while moving as long as the gun stays withing the maximum depression/elevation, nevertheless such situations occure relatively often even with a Leo II. The small depression/elevation of a usual T is a real problem in these situations.

IMHO the French got it right with the Leclerc. They managed to keep the weight down not by making the overall tank or turret smaller but by using a short hull due to a modern turbobar diesel.
Modern powerpacks with good outputs like the mentioned turbobar or the Europowerpack by MTU are becoming smaller so cutting the hull is a good option for reducing overall weight.

As for the L/44 soldiering on.
Even countries which do not use DU ammo are keeping L/44 guns in service.
The Swedish Strv 122 and the Danish Leopard IIA5DK have a L/44 gun, albeit with the usual upgrades of the KWS I which allow the use of DM53/63 ammunition.

The Japanese Type 90 also got no upgrade to a L/55 gun as well as their new tank, the Type 10, although with the Type 10 keeping it small should be a major reason for this.

Not to forget all the Abrams users out there. Egypt, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Australia don't use DU ammo but are still keeping 44 calibre guns.

Note that 3+km kills are extremely rare if there is anything resembling vegetation. Even in the north german plain most kills are at 1km or less with long range shots being a rare exception.

Finally I want to congratulate you to your job wish. These days it seems that nearly all the kids want to go the light infantry/superspecialwhateversoldier route (Apart from the AF and Navy guys).
Good to see that there are still kids out there which are attracted by the iron horse cavalry!
If the sh** hits the fan we all know who is going to do the killing on the ground. The heavy combined arms units and not some slow and vulnerable crunchies.

Panzer Hurra! ;)

From time to time I need to write some totally baseless infantry bashing sentences...
 

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
From time to time I need to write some totally baseless infantry bashing sentences...
That's OK, it makes you feel less bad about being the biggest target on the battlefield - we 'krunchies' :rolleyes: understand. Now go back to smelling like diesel and resembling sardines...:lol2
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The T-72 was specified as a cheap version of the T-64 and it shares the configuration and same main armament. For the purposes of considering tank configuration they are in the same ‘family’ without any concern for a transverse engine or not.
Internationally perhaps, but within Soviet tank design they were a clear split.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
@Feanor : Have there been any recent developments in the procurement of the Burlak T-90? I have seen several drawings and pictures of the new turret, and it looks interesting. My question is that will it have both the carousel loader AND the bustle-mounted loader? A dual set would be redundant, but then again, theoretically couldn't all the ammo be stored in the autoloaders? Is it even be possible to actually have BOTH autoloaders in the same tank?
The Burlak project has nothing to do with the T-90. It's a new turret design to be mounted on older T-72 and T-80 tanks as an upgrade. It's been canceled as far as I know, with the new plan being to replace all tanks with T-90 variants.

EDIT: The technology from the canceled Burlak is likely to have been incorporated into the T-90M turret design.
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
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  • #45
It's a new turret design to be mounted on older T-72 and T-80 tanks as an upgrade.
Talking about turrets, when the Malaysian army first issued a tender for MBT's in the mid-90's a proposal was received from a German company to supply T-72 hulls mounted with a Leopard 1 turret....
Can't really see how useful this would have been, apart from maybe the savings in weight?

A couple of questions..

Does the Ukraine manufacture Kontakt-5 or does it just have stocks in place to offer for export with the T-84?

Is everyone here convinced on the usefulness of having a gun launched missile like the Songster and Refleks? Apart from taking up space that could be used for gun ammo, it is arguable that it would be more practical for the main gun to be used against other MBT's, rather than a gun launched missile, and for supporting troops to engage helicopters.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Talking about turrets, when the Malaysian army first issued a tender for MBT's in the mid-90's a proposal was received from a German company to supply T-72 hulls mounted with a Leopard 1 turret....
Can't really see how useful this would have been, apart from maybe the savings in weight?

A couple of questions..

Does the Ukraine manufacture Kontakt-5 or does it just have stocks in place to offer for export with the T-84?

Is everyone here convinced on the usefulness of having a gun launched missile like the Songster and Refleks? Apart from taking up space that could be used for gun ammo, it is arguable that it would be more practical for the main gun to be used against other MBT's, rather than a gun launched missile, and for supporting troops to engage helicopters.
I've heard that the Ukranians have a new form of ERA, meant for the Oplot-M. I don't know if they currently have K-5 in production. Quite possible that they do, since the T-64BM mod includes ERA.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Maybe the proposed T-72/Leopard 1 bastard was a cheap way to to marry the advanced FCS of the Leopard 1A5 to a T-72 hull. Older Leo 1 versions have no real advantage over ex-NVA T-72M1s.

As for gun launched missiles.
Those are meant for long range sniping against targets with less armor than MBTs and for the ocassional long range side shot against enemy tanks as well as against Helicopters.

IMO modern FCS and ammunitions make these points rather mood. A good FCS kills these targets just as well at any reasonable range. Modern programmable rounds are also more dangerous to helicopters.

The Lahat is an exception as it is possible to guide it with an external laser designator making for some interesting tactical possibilities.
 
Answering OP's third question, a 30 mm API round from the A-10 Thunderbolt II can penetrate 75 mm of RHA at 0 degrees obliquity at Optimal combat ranges, but only about 38 mm at ranges over 1 km. A Slovakian 30 mm APFSDS round, known as the IHLA, can penetrate 90 mm of RHA at 0 degrees obliquity at 1 km and 76 mm of RHA at 0 degrees obliquity at 2 km.

The Rear Turret armor of the T-72 and the T-90 have a 100 mm - 260 mm RHA equivalence v.s. APFSDS rounds and 120 - 150 mm RHA equivalence to HEAT rounds. In addition, there are storage boxes of 500 mm thickness which can act as improvised standoff, they give about 150 mm RHA equilvance v.s. HEAT rounds. So, I think it's safe to say that 25/30 mm APFSDS rounds will "bounce off" the back of the Turret, and 1st Generation Infantry portable AT weapons/warheads like the PG-7V or M72 LAW will also be ineffective (however, if a Tandem-warhead is employed, you can expect penetration.)

Assuming a side hit to the Engine compartment, here are the stats for that. The Engine of the T-72 is located in the back of the tank. The side of the T-72's hull has about 60 mm of Steel, with rubber side skirts of 25 mm thick, which adds a 600 mm air gap. Finally, the fuel tanks along the sponsons would add about 200 mm RHA equivalency v.s. HEAT. Overall, that equates to about 500 mm RHA equivalency v.s. HEAT. That would make the side of the T-72/T-90 protected from single stage HEAT warheads like the PG-7V from the RPG-7 or the early warheads of the M72 LAW. In fact, the side hull can theoretically withstand a hit from the AT4 HEAT variant. I should also mention that over 50% of the side hull of the T-72 is equipped with Kontakt-5.

Now, if you were to aim for the Engine compartment from the rear of the T-72, that's a different story. The rear of the tank is about 40 mm thick, probably general RHA. The HEAT armor can range from 40 mm equilvance to as much as 180 mm equivlance of RHA. However, that would not be enough to stop a 1st Generation HEAT.

So, simple answer to your question is: No, aim for the Tank's butt.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
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  • #49
So, I think it's safe to say that 25/30 mm APFSDS rounds will "bounce off" the back of the Turret, and 1st Generation Infantry portable AT weapons/warheads like the PG-7V or M72 LAW will also be ineffective (however, if a Tandem-warhead is employed, you can expect penetration.)
There was an article in Soldier of Forune a few years ago with pics of an
an Iraqi T-72 that was penetrated to the rear of the turret by a Bradley's 25mm rounds.
 

Waylander

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Those were T-72Ms and M1s.
Test after the reunification in Germany have shown that the rear side and back of the turret and hull are not safe from the 20mm of the Marder.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
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  • #55
Guys, thanks for the feedback.

A question of replacing the ERA modules, assuming of course the MBT wasn't destroyed. Are any special tools needed to replace the ERA modules on T-72's/T-90's/T-84s, etc.. or can it easily be done in the field?

Curious about why the Israeli 'chains and balls' fittted on on the Merkava hasn't been adopted by other users. Seems a cheap and effective way to provide additional protection from shoulder launched weapons.

Older Leo 1 versions have no real advantage over ex-NVA T-72M1s.
Sorry for the basic question which I'm sure most armour enthusiasts would know but did the older Leo 1s have about the same baseline armour protection as T-72M1s?
 
I'm actually pretty sure the T-72M1 was actually more armored than a Leo 1, as the Leo 1 was originally designed to be able to take 30 mm cannon fire and had a maximum of about 70 mm of RHA (for comparison, even Iraqi Lions of Babylon had about 300 mm of RHA in some of it's thickest parts.)
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
70mm was the actual thickness of the sloped armour - don't forget the slope and that it's not actually rolled homogenous armour we're talking about. RHAe of the original Leo 1 in 1967 was ~190mm vs KE (270 vs HEAT). This was roughly equivalent to the T-62.

T72M1 RHAe performance was roughly equivalent to the Leopard 1A3/A4 used by Germany between 1975 and 1989, T72M export versions a bit less. The Leopard 1A5 as used from 1986 onwards war far superior to that of course.
 
Estimates put the T-62E's Front turret protection v.s. KE and CE to be 480 mm and 500 mm RHAe. That just about outclasses all Leopard 1 variants up to IA5.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And for T-62MV (the version with ERA) RHAe (against KE) would be in the middle between early Leo 1 and Leo 1A3/A4 (or T-72M1). With ERA its protection against HEAT would be considerably better than any Leo 1 version including Leo A15 though.

The cited 480mm RHAe for T-62E is with the BDD armour package (one the T-62MV this is replaced by ERA).
 
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