Indonesian Aero News

[Sandhi Yudha]

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Few years back, when SOE ministry try to come out with schemes for procurement of A400M under civilian contract, I talked about more or less similar scheme that Soeharto regime done with C160NG procurement. Military standard transport being procure by SOE Airlines as potential dual use. Procurement of 6 of this C-160NG which represents latest variance of Transall, done in 80's.

In paper, military standard transport (medium class) during Soeharto 80's era were done by procurement of 12 C-130H (including Maritime Patrol variance). However (as they are both government owned airlines), 5 L-100-30 also procure by Pelita Air and Merpati Air in that era. Those of which in the end all being turn over to TNI-AU by turn of this century.

SOE Airlines in paper procured those transport airplanes for business model in supporting infrastructure projects. Similar thing that SOE ministry under Jokowi's first term try to do. Those in reality become 'quasy' dual use transport. As those L-100-30 and C-160NG are reported occasionally used on Military operation in East Timor and Papua.

I don't think this kind of Business model will be use again. Second term of Jokowi's administration, then decide to drop A400M procurement through SOE Airlines, and directly put that under MinDef procurement for TNI-AU use.

Pelita Air now seems going to be settled as 3rd SOE regular schedule Airlines with Garuda and Citilink. While Merpati already declare insolvent decades ago. Thus seems no dual use busineses model going to implement again. Something that hopefully going to build more proper Corporate Business model for SOE airlines.

Still this shown how basically 6 AN-12 procured under Soekarno old order era, actually can be said being replace by 6 C-160NG under Soeharto new order era. Just those are not directly put under Military useage.

If im not wrong, two of those C-160s from Pelita Air went to Manunggal Air.

DSA 2024: BrahMos eyes cruise missile export to Southeast Asia

BrahMos Aerospace – a joint venture (JV) between India and Russia – has outlined its plans to export its supersonic cruise missiles to Southeast Asian countries at the...

www.janes.com

Jane's claim there're serious discussion with Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam for Brahmos missile. Both Indonesia and Malaysia looking for Air Launch variance for Su-30 and Shore based variance for Vietnam.

I don't know how to put this, as question arise why trying to equip missile for (at least for Indonesia) fighter variance that's being rumours, going to be retire by end of decade. Or could be it sign that Indonesia has second tought on F-15ID/EX ? Could it be the costs of F-15 procurement and maintenance facing budget realism?

Duta Besar RI di Rusia: Kontrak jet tempur Su-35 Indonesia tetap berlaku, akan diteruskan jika kondisi sudah lebih akomodatif - TASS

AIRSPACE REVIEW - Indonesia tidak pernah mengakhiri kontrak pembelian jet tempur Su-35 dari Rusia dan menunggu situasi menjadi lebih akomoda

www.airspace-review.com

Russian embassy in Jakarta still claim (either from present ambassador or previous ones), they have not received official cancelation for Su-35. Thus technically it is still open for further execution when better condition arise. That's better condition open to interpretation.

Will Indonesia now willing to take more risk on CAATSA ? For one thing Frenchie or Turkiye assets that's being sought are all having no or very minimal US components. Indonesia also being rumours want to pull out from KF-21 because many US components, that Indonesia has not getting permission for suitable tech transfer access.

Again shown Politics matter on Indonesian procurement. India seems 'read' that political trend, which then try to come as alternatives. India also being rumours already in serious talk with Malaysia and then Indonesia as vendors for Su-30 maintenance and modification.

After all those years of putting on hold of the procurement of the 11 Su-35 fighters, it is highly unlikely that Indonesia suddenly wants to risk CAATSA-sanctions.
But ordering air-launchable Brahmos anti-ship missiles from India and upgrading of the current fleet of Su-27SKM/-30MK2 by India, that should be possible.



The last of the five ordered C-130J-30 has landed at Halim Perdanakusuma AB.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1791011907446669364

 

[x100 XKR]

The C-130J never appeared on DSCA notifications. Is that common?

 

[koxinga]

The planes were sold as direct commercial sales, and they did not use US FMF funding.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

A nice video of an Elang Ausindo exercise (i don't know from which year)

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Two days ago on 20 may they celebrated that the Falcon Star/eMLU was finished on TS-1611. This is the eighth out of ten F-16A/B Block 15OCU of TNI-AUs fleet on the upgrade-list.
TS-1603 and TS-1608 are still undergoing the update-program.

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[Ananda]

KSAU Pimpin Rapat Perkembangan Pengadaan Alutsista TNI AU | seputarmiliter.id

Pembahasan pengadaan mencakup pesawat Rafale, Airbus A330 MRTT, radar, upgrade jet Sukhoi 27/30, serta UCAV-4 dan UCAV Anka.

seputarmiliter.id

TNI AU on Instagram: " "Kasau Pimpin Rapat Perkembangan Pengadaan TNI AU" Kepala Staf Angkatan Udara (Kasau) Marsekal TNI M. Tonny Harjono, S.E., M.M., memimpin rapat perkembangan pengadaan TNI Angkatan Udara, di Ruang Rapat Kasau, Mabesau, Cilangkap, Jakarta Timur, Rabu (22/5/2024). Rapat tersebut berlangsung selama tiga hari, mulai hari Senin 20 Mei sampai dengan Rabu 22 Mei 2024, diisi dengan paparan dari masing-masing Satuan Tugas (Satgas) pengadaan TNI AU terkait perkembangan pengadaan pesawat Rafale, pesawat MRTT, Radar, Upgrade/OH Sukhoi 27/30, UCAV-4 dan UCAV ANKA. Pemaparan juga membahas tentang perkembangan pengadaan berbagai alutsista beserta infrastrukturnya, yang diproyeksikan untuk menambah kekuatan TNI AU. Rapat ini dihadiri secara langsung oleh Wakasau Marsdya TNI Andyawan Martono P., S.I.P., Pangkoopsudnas Marsdya TNI Ir. Tedi Rizalihadi S., M.M., Koorsahli Kasau, Irjenau, para Asisten Kasau, Pangkoopsud I, Kapusalpalhan Baranahan Kemhan RI, Dirlat Kodiklatau, serta para pejabat utama di lingkungan Mabesau. Sementara hadir secara online Dankoharmatau, Pangkoopsud II, dan III, Dankopasgat, Dankosek serta para Danlanud jajaran. "TNI Angkatan Udara - Jauh di Langit Dekat di Hati" DISPENAU@2024. #tniau #swabhuwanapaksa #jauhdilangitdekatdihati #airmentv #airmenradio #tniauampuh #ampuh #kasau #marsekaltnitonnyharjono #marsekaltonnyharjono #tonnyharjono"

1,379 likes, 7 comments - militer.udara on May 22, 2024: " "Kasau Pimpin Rapat Perkembangan Pengadaan TNI AU" Kepala Staf Angkatan Udara (Kasau) Marsekal TNI M. Tonny Harjono, S.E., M.M., m...".

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This week the new Chief of TNI-AU hold meeting on preparation for new assets integration. Some like Rafale, Flankers Upgrade, Chinese CH-4 UCAV and GCI Radars already been talk in media before of the contract activation. However this MRTT and Turkiye UCAV still not officially shown contract activation.

Still usually if already being talk on official meeting perhaps the deals finalisation already got green light or at least strong finalisation. At least no F-15EX talk yet, so I'm still in my personal hope it will be ditch for either more Rafale or F-16V program. Could be fools hope, but who knows.

 

[Ananda]

Euro Salesmen talk about dedicated EW Assests. Seems he's focusing on Growler. Could this salesman smell something? As I also heard rumours potential talk with Boeing to switch order from F-15EX.

Boeing seems try hard to get order for Shornet or Growler, as to prolong the line for at least another 2-3 years. Personally for me if still want to give business to Boeing (as part of Boeing off set to DI and Garuda GMF), getting 24 Growler is preferable then 24 F-15EX.

At this moment KH-31 is the only anti radiation missile that 'rumours' own by TNI-AU. Those are part of Su-30 Mk2 arsenal.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Euro Salesmen talk about dedicated EW Assests. Seems he's focusing on Growler. Could this salesman smell something? As I also heard rumours potential talk with Boeing to switch order from F-15EX.

Boeing seems try hard to get order for Shornet or Growler, as to prolong the line for at least another 2-3 years. Personally for me if still want to give business to Boeing (as part of Boeing off set to DI and Garuda GMF), getting 24 Growler is preferable then 24 F-15EX.

At this moment KH-31 is the only anti radiation missile that 'rumours' own by TNI-AU. Those are part of Su-30 Mk2 arsenal.

I am not an expert, but as far as i know it was possible to attach ECM-pods to F-16s, and the F-16V has a quite complete electronic warfare suite installed. So is it really necessary to order again a new type of fighterjet just for EW-purposes? To buy the F-18 only to satisfy Boeing is just incredible stupid. Then its better to go for the P-8 or 737 AEW&C.

And yes, photos have proven that TNI-AU has the Kh-31P in its arsenal. Btw, the AGM-88 also fits on the F-16.

 

[Ananda]

To buy the F-18 only to satisfy Boeing is just incredible stupid. Then its better to go for the P-8 or 737 AEW&C.

Come on @Sandhi Yudha when TNI procurement, more precise even Indonesian bureaucracy programs ever been really 'fools' prove . All depends on political lobbying approach. That's where the salesman channel got made their living.

Hawk 200/100 slote to be replaced by Rafale. Flankers being 'rumours' in the end replaced by F-15ID. If F-15ID being substitute by Growler, (which) then replacing Flankers, basically they are only replacing 1 type altogether.

I'd they want dedicated EW platform, then seems the choices in market either Growler or some BBJ conversions. Su-30 has abilities although much more limited for EW, so does F-16V. However neither of them are dedicated EW platforms.

Well, this if logics still rules the procurement, they will focus on Rafale and F-16V and ditch Flankers, Hawk 200 and that F-15 planned. Something that indicate there'll be 'compromise' between Logic and Lobby's.

Off course it's still rumours, however the need for EW dedicated platforms has been in talk from previous TNI-AU Chief era. If they got clearance for that EW Platforms, it will be the costs of another type. There's not much budget too begin with.

 

[koxinga]

Growler type EW platforms are meant to accompany strike packages hence the mission profile is somewhat niche, specific and corrospondingly, expensive. Hence this need is usually met with podded solutions for most airforces.

The business jet type EW solutions usually have a wider mission profile. For one, they use a commercial platform that emphasis range, persistence, low operational cost. The missions therefore cover more broadly, COMINT, ESM, ELINT etc and in some cases maritime patrol/SAR.

 

[John Fedup]

Some Growlers together with SuperHornets is an effective strike package. Common airframe, the refuelling capabilities of the SH, and a EW platform that can defend itself, lots to like if the funds are available. Sales approval for the Growler might be an option but Boeing pressure and the continued production might sway the US government to approve export.

 

[Ananda]

Boeing actually offer the options of Shornet and F-15. Shornet is the Boeing alternative against French offer of Rafale, while F-15 is the US offer as Indonesia did not qualified for F-35 and Prabowo reluctant to accept F-16 Block 72 (V).

Indonesia's new fighter procurement saga continues with US offer for F-15, F-18 aircraft

United States offers F15, F18 aircraft to Indonesia

www.blogbeforeflight.net

Indonesia then opted not to take F-15 and F-18 combo, instead Rafale and F-15. Reflecting Indonesia position so far not to relies with one supplier. However until now the package of USD 14 bio for 36 F-15ID not being endorse by not only MoF but also some in MinDef, especially those from other branches.

This is where I also heard rumours there's option to drop F-15ID, as even as (rumours) Boeing offer package of USD 9 bio for 24 F-15ID still being considered too much by Finance people, and those in MinDef that want to have allocation for other branches, especially for further batches of Navy Frigates and of Submarines.

This is where LM see potential to relaunch again their F-16V, but seems (again rumours) Boeing want to counter that with also relaunch F-18 bid. Seems Boeing offer two points advantage against F-16V on their F-18 package:

1. F-18 production line has no long line, thus they can speed up delivery,
2. Offer on some of F-18 can be wired for Growler.

Seems the 2nd one also that in my opinion being hinted by the Euro Salesman YouTube channel. All this as some in here consider F-15 package is just too high, and too big proportions of overall budget from other branches. Again it is also depends next administration (Prabowo's one) on whether they want to allocate more budget or continue present Jokowi's budget allocation percentage.

 

[x100 XKR]

Boeing actually offer the options of Shornet and F-15. Shornet is the Boeing alternative against French offer of Rafale, while F-15 is the US offer as Indonesia did not qualified for F-35 and Prabowo reluctant to accept F-16 Block 72 (V).

Indonesia's new fighter procurement saga continues with US offer for F-15, F-18 aircraft

United States offers F15, F18 aircraft to Indonesia

www.blogbeforeflight.net

Indonesia then opted not to take F-15 and F-18 combo, instead Rafale and F-15. Reflecting Indonesia position so far not to relies with one supplier. However until now the package of USD 14 bio for 36 F-15ID not being endorse by not only MoF but also some in MinDef, especially those from other branches.

This is where I also heard rumours there's option to drop F-15ID, as even as (rumours) Boeing offer package of USD 9 bio for 24 F-15ID still being considered too much by Finance people, and those in MinDef that want to have allocation for other branches, especially for further batches of Navy Frigates and of Submarines.

This is where LM see potential to relaunch again their F-16V, but seems (again rumours) Boeing want to counter that with also relaunch F-18 bid. Seems Boeing offer two points advantage against F-16V on their F-18 package:

1. F-18 production line has no long line, thus they can speed up delivery,
2. Offer on some of F-18 can be wired for Growler.

Seems the 2nd one also that in my opinion being hinted by the Euro Salesman YouTube channel. All this as some in here consider F-15 package is just too high, and too big proportions of overall budget from other branches. Again it is also depends next administration (Prabowo's one) on whether they want to allocate more budget or continue present Jokowi's budget allocation percentage.

In other locales, all these mix messages and indecisions about armed forces procurement will be called total chaos. In Indo, it's more like a slow Tuesday ....

I get that F-15EX is expensive, but for combination over-water combat persistence/large magazine, range, kinematic performance, and avionics (humongous radar), I'd say F-15EX is tailor-made for South China Sea engagements/deterrence, provided the AF is smart enough to have them fully equipped with none of the FFBNW bs.

But - I agree that for commonality, easier ramp up, high-lo mix of Rafale, F-16V/AM/BM will make more sense. Throw in KF21 in the mix as long term successor to F16 AM/BM with TA50 as LIFT, I'd say that would be a potent mix. Ditch the Sukhois (donate to Ukr as added deal leverage), Hawk and Tucano (just give up the dedicated COIN thing already) - should have enough $ left for other force multiplier.

I don't know about dedicated SEAD assets like Growlers. It's hard enough for the AF to field general combat aircraft, dedicated/role focused platforms like Growlers (or Super Tucano - there I said it again), should be placed in the backburner or below-the-line kind of budget treatment IMO.

 

[tonnyc]

I get that F-15EX is expensive, but for combination over-water combat persistence/large magazine, range, kinematic performance, and avionics (humongous radar), I'd say F-15EX is tailor-made for South China Sea engagements/deterrence, provided the AF is smart enough to have them fully equipped with none of the FFBNW bs.

Heh. Most people familiar with Indonesian defense procurement will laugh (somewhat bitterly) at that last clause. FFBNW bs indeed.

But the first part about SCS also bears examination, as many believe that Indonesia shouldn't get involved in the wider SCS dispute and only secure the waters around the Natuna islands. If that's indeed the strategy, the F-15EX's capability is largely wasted and the funding can be better used to get, well, more of other jet fighters and more of their armaments and equipment kits.

EDIT: if you ask the Indonesians here you'd find we're really reluctant to commit on using our military force to support one side or another in the South China Sea. We likely all agree that it doesn't belong to China (or anyone else) while respecting the 200 nautical miles from their mainland as EEZ, but ask us about how much force we'd be willing to commit to support that interpretation, and you'll see a lot of hemming and hawwing.

 

[Ananda]

Finland gets the green light to buy F-35, F-18 and billions of dollars in weapons

Finland still hasn't made a final decision on the winner of its HX competition.

www.defensenews.com

I put this as comparison on US offer to Finland for choice of 64 F-35 and 58 Shornet + 14 Growler. Off course we know Finland choose F-35 package, but it is just comparison how USD +/- 14 Bio was offer number for 36 F-15EX or 72 Shornet+Growler.

Off course package prices and costs is different case by case. However as ball park can be said offer prices of Shortnet package is close to half of F-15EX package. This is what I suspect (again as rumours) what Boeing put as option as they see Indonesian finance bureaucracy circles has some 'opposition' toward F-15ID/EX packages.

Personally I always support F-16V, as choices. However increasingly the talk for Boeing choices seems getting firmer as choices. Thus just my two cents if they want 36 US made Boeing Fighters, then go with Shornet. 24 Shornet + 12 Growler can be choice. It can satisfy to give US order for political needs, while can still satisfy budget need for other branches procurement.

For me getting 24 F-16V plus say 8 Bombardier with EW suits is better for Indonesia need against 24 Shornet and 12 Growler. Again I'm bias on budget perspective, as for me more important to have something that's affordable from procurement and operational readines.

Getting Shornet also has benefit on same engine with KF-21. Thus if commitment for KF-21 still being followed, it is also providing better logistics foot print on propulsion maintenance for one thing.

Shornet also build for maritime warfare, thus it is also has (in that perspective) appropriate choices against potential flare up in SCS.

 

[x100 XKR]

Heh. Most people familiar with Indonesian defense procurement will laugh (somewhat bitterly) at that last clause. FFBNW bs indeed.

But the first part about SCS also bears examination, as many believe that Indonesia shouldn't get involved in the wider SCS dispute and only secure the waters around the Natuna islands. If that's indeed the strategy, the F-15EX's capability is largely wasted and the funding can be better used to get, well, more of other jet fighters and more of their armaments and equipment kits.

EDIT: if you ask the Indonesians here you'd find we're really reluctant to commit on using our military force to support one side or another in the South China Sea. We likely all agree that it doesn't belong to China (or anyone else) while respecting the 200 nautical miles from their mainland as EEZ, but ask us about how much force we'd be willing to commit to support that interpretation, and you'll see a lot of hemming and hawwing.

Not surprising. The legacy of being non-aligned dies hard.

If flare up ever occur over SCS with PRC as belligerent, and Indo chose to be involved, I'd be more concerned with how it would impact the Indo Chinese community.

I agree also with Ananda's assessment, F16V is the most logical choice. Easy ramp up, the simplest logistical chain to setup, operator familiarity etc. F-16 as a platform can also carry almost every single western ordnance out there, albeit in smaller qty vs F-15EX. CFT will mitigate the range concern. Kinematically, it is better than F-18E as well I believe. Definitely more affordable too.

But then anything logical abt Indo armed forces procurement seems like a hit or miss ....

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Finland gets the green light to buy F-35, F-18 and billions of dollars in weapons

Finland still hasn't made a final decision on the winner of its HX competition.

www.defensenews.com

I put this as comparison on US offer to Finland for choice of 64 F-35 and 58 Shornet + 14 Growler. Off course we know Finland choose F-35 package, but it is just comparison how USD +/- 14 Bio was offer number for 36 F-15EX or 72 Shornet+Growler.

Off course package prices and costs is different case by case. However as ball park can be said offer prices of Shortnet package is close to half of F-15EX package. This is what I suspect (again as rumours) what Boeing put as option as they see Indonesian finance bureaucracy circles has some 'opposition' toward F-15ID/EX packages.

Personally I always support F-16V, as choices. However increasingly the talk for Boeing choices seems getting firmer as choices. Thus just my two cents if they want 36 US made Boeing Fighters, then go with Shornet. 24 Shornet + 12 Growler can be choice. It can satisfy to give US order for political needs, while can still satisfy budget need for other branches procurement.

For me getting 24 F-16V plus say 8 Bombardier with EW suits is better for Indonesia need against 24 Shornet and 12 Growler. Again I'm bias on budget perspective, as for me more important to have something that's affordable from procurement and operational readines.

Getting Shornet also has benefit on same engine with KF-21. Thus if commitment for KF-21 still being followed, it is also providing better logistics foot print on propulsion maintenance for one thing.

Shornet also build for maritime warfare, thus it is also has (in that perspective) appropriate choices against potential flare up in SCS.

Even if the package for the 36 F-15EX is so complete, i always had the feeling that the packages offered to Indonesia were overpriced, like we will subsidize acquisitions of other countries like Israel if we agree with it.

The F-18 has indeed similar engines with the T-50 and KF-21, but from which i understand the maintenance costs of the F-18 is higher than the F-16, it has also less range than the F-16. Let alone if the F-16 is equipped with CFTs. And range + endurance are the things we need for EW- and MPA aircraft. So yes, i agree with you that Bombardiers or Falcons are more suitable in these roles for Indonesia.





Btw, two SkU 16 F-16s did a joint patrol with an unknown number of TUDM F-18Ds last week above Selat Malaka.

TNI AU dan Tentara Udara Malaysia patroli bersama di Selat Malaka

Pasukan TNI AU melakukan patroli udara bersama dengan Tentara Udara Diraja Malaysia (TUDM) untuk menjaga beberapa titik di perbatasan Malaysia dan Indonesia, ...

m.antaranews.com

And here some nice photos of a joint exercise with an Australian P-8A and a 737-2X9 Surveiller.

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