Germany

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Budget Committee of Parliament today approved new procurement for about 13 billion Euro:
  • (*) Procurement of 35 F-35A nuclear carrier aircraft for 8.3 billion Euro, delivery 2026-2029.
  • (*) Framework contract for Soveron HR/VR digital radio infrastructure within D-LBO land forces digitalisation project, total 20,000 radios plus 14,000 options for 2.9 billion Euro.
  • Upgrade of remaining 143 Puma IFV to common fleet-wide specs for 850 million Euro.
  • (*) Procurement of 140 Bv-410 CATV vehicles for mountain infantry (to replace Bv-206D, but with this batch not Bv-206S) for 405 million euro.
  • Procurement of 118,718 assault rifles based on HK416A8 (G36 successor) for 273 million euro, to be delivered starting Q1/2024.
  • Transport contract for VJTF with DB Cargo (keeping 340 flatbed train cars, locomotives, staff available at 6 days notice and conclude transport within pre-set deadlines after that) for 69 million Euro.
  • (*) Procurement of IdZ radio sets for 14 infantry platoons for 53 million Euro, to be delivered before end of the year (!).
Projects marked with (*) are being financed from the 100 billion fund.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
$6.18 million per vehicle to upgrade the Pumas to the VJTF standard only a few years after they were produced is absolutely insane.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
(*) Procurement of 35 F-35A nuclear carrier aircraft for 8.3 billion Euro, delivery 2026-2029.
Just to clarify. 35 F-35A. To carry nuclear weapons.
Not F-35A, for a German Nuclear aircraft carrier. Those unfamiliar with the issue, may jump to a conclusion. ;)

Well the F-35 que gets longer. But 35 seems like a very, very niche capability for Germany. I presume some of the smaller NATO nations might band together and make a combined F-35 force out of it? Does Germany have other weapons they can fire from it?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yes, Germany has some weapons it can launch, & IIRC is buying some specifically for the F-35A, because it's not worth integrating its other weapons onto such a small number of aircraft.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
They're buying 75 JASSM and a couple hundred SDB II and GBU-31 with the aircraft (included in above price) for some limited general strike duties.

The wing that is being equipped with the F-35 does have a primary tactic-strategic strike role though.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
You can scratch Puma off the list, it's getting postponed.

I would not be surprised if the entire project is scrapped and Germany opts for further upgrades to the Marder and increased Boxer production.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You can scratch Puma off the list, it's getting postponed.
Nope, what's getting postponed by ministerial order as of today is the "second batch". This second batch of variable number (most recently set to likely only 50 more vehicles, after continuous downsizing over the last two years much to the dislike of tracked vehicle fans) was still under discussion and had yet to be brought up in parliament.

The upgrade of the existing fleet is not affected - so far.

The exact nature and circumstances of the "technical problems" encountered by the VJTF reinforced company are under investigation. There are some rumours out there that the unit may not have taken along any spare parts or did not schedule any maintenance for the vehicles. While the division commander in the same paragraph manages to highlight that the Leopard 2 company on the same exercise "showed 80-90% readiness" - "with prioritised overnight maintenance".

Part of the investigation will of course be whether the VJTF / S1 upgrade changed some internals such as to make them more susceptible to faults. This could easily be the case e.g. due to re-laid cabling or differences in power requirements. The same unit that had its Pumas fail in this exercise did an identical exercise in May without any problems. Which was sorta the proving exercise to declare the Puma ready at all at the time.

For some scale, there are 350 Puma currently in service, along with about 200 Marder (incl. two battalions in current configuration) that have been retained in service for units not equipped with it. Those units now equipped with Marder would mostly be shifted to "medium forces" to be equipped with Boxers under the current restructuring for Division 2025 - hence the second Puma batch being reduced to effectively one battalion.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Waited a bit on this to put it together:

I would not be surprised if the entire project is scrapped and Germany opts for further upgrades to the Marder and increased Boxer production.
Conservative newspaper FAZ (no link due to German press law) based on its sources paints the "crippling damage" to the Pumas in a somewhat different light now:
  • in one case a monitor no longer worked after someone accidentally kicked it
  • in one case a screw was loose on a bracket for storing missiles
  • in one case a fuse was tripped
  • in one case the crew "forgot" that the heater only works if you put the switch for it to "on".
  • other cases supposedly included minor software problems, a "blocked fuel system" and "fouled-up" cameras.
  • KMW and Rheinmetall after inspecting the vehicles supposedly consider 80% of the reported damage trivial or non-existant.
  • of the 18 Puma two were past their regular scheduled maintenance deadline, eight further were shortly closing up on it
  • only in two cases damage was serious:
    • in one case there was a cable fire in the driver's compartment.
    • in one case the gear ring of the turret was defective (industry in this case suspects a previous vehicle accident) and has to be "readjusted"
  • industry representatives are "certain" that they can repair the "damage" on most vehicles (probably all but those latter two) by January 1st.
And yes, most of the above reads rather comical. Possibly according to other reports (non-FAZ) there may have also been one or more vehicles - other than the one with the fire - in which non-descript minor electric equipment or cabling may have "smoldered". There has been some speculation in the last couple days on the net that such damage could have been related to e.g. the cold weather (there was one night at -15°C during the exercise) and/or e.g. possible mishandling of air conditioning/climate equipment on the vehicles after that night.

The FAZ article is generally considered to be somewhat of a "counterattack" by defence industry against the MoD and the Bundeswehr.

It veers off after that into further industry statements that while their technicians may have been present during the exercise (as has been alleged by the MoD) they were not called upon by the troops; in addition they call into question why the troops waited with their damage report until all 18 vehicles were considered "failed". The article speculates on this with a possible "positive variant" that the commander wanted to simulate a frontline scenario without industry support and a "negative variant" that the Army was keeping the industry technicians away from their vehicles to hide neglected maintenance and problems with spare parts supply".

------------------

The scheduled maintenance deadline line above is also a major point of industry, which suggest that these specific vehicles would not have been part of VJTF anyway as they would have been in industry maintenance in January anyway. There is an underlaying allegation that the unit was using "burner vehicles" of sorts that had been traded among the companies of the battalion for exercise use.

That above "negative variant" scenario seems to be coming from the conservative opposition (i.e. CDU), who is calling for an investigation to "exclude the possibility that maintenance mistakes of the troops were to be covered up". They also want clarification on the exact timeline of the damage report.

Apparently MajGen Butler (10th Armored Division commander) reported the damage to LtGen Langenegger (deputy inspector general of the army) by telephone precisely on the morning of the day that the budget comittee was to decide on upgrading the remaining Puma to the common S1 standard - i.e. on Dec 15th. Langenegger then ordered a written report from Butler - which arrived by encrypted mail by 5:25 the next morning. What CDU wants to know is whether the MoD - or rather others, such as those representing her in the committee meeting - were informed about this oral report before the meeting (the MoD herself was visiting troops in Mali at the time).

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Also, unlike what was initially in reports, the 18 Puma did not fail with "an average lifetime of 4 days on the shooting range" (paraphrased quote of MajGen Butler). Note: The below is not in the FAZ article.
The unit has been on a longer, successive training deployment of about 4 weeks, during which the 8-day exercise with the failures was the third week-long round on the range. During the first two "rounds" damage or failure was a rather regular 20% of the deployed fleet, the same as it has been for the Leopard 2 company that was deployed alongside them on the third round.
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
17 out of 18 Pumas affected have been fully "repaired".

The 18th is the one with the cable fire. Due to lack of a CO2 fire extinguisher onboard the fire was apparently combatted with a regular extinguisher, which apparently led to damage to other nearby components.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Germany is struggling to deliver on it's promise of "Zeitenwende" almost one year ago.

In May last year they created a new EUR 100 billion defence fund. A third of it has already been earmarked for various new weapons systems. However not a penny of the €100bn has yet been spent. Incredible. At the same time German defence industry is eagerly waiting for actual orders. It has been well known since spring last year that the war in Ukraine would spend massive amounts of ammo, and orders for e.g. 155 mm ammo should have been made last summer (or fall at the latest). What takes them so long?

 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
However not a penny of the €100bn has yet been spent.
About 30 billion have so far been firmly assigned to projects for which contracts are in negotiations or which have been signed (about half each). That's mostly F-35 and CH-47F as well as new communication systems, in addition to a couple smaller projects. German industy is "eagerly waiting" because the government is buying abrod instead of investing large sums in them so that they could expand in order to build for other customers...

Also, two points: a) ammunition is not part of the 100 billion fund, and this has been known since its inception. b) the 100 billion fund is not in any way directly or indirectly to be used for any deliveries to Ukraine. Those come from other budgets.

The FT article is based on claims from the conservative opposition btw. Which pretty much got refuted by government side politicians pointing out that the only reason the 100 billion fund is necessary is to make up for lack of funding during the previous 16-year conservative tenure.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
About 30 billion have so far been firmly assigned to projects for which contracts are in negotiations or which have been signed (about half each). That's mostly F-35 and CH-47F as well as new communication systems, in addition to a couple smaller projects. German industy is "eagerly waiting" because the government is buying abrod instead of investing large sums in them so that they could expand in order to build for other customers...

Also, two points: a) ammunition is not part of the 100 billion fund, and this has been known since its inception. b) the 100 billion fund is not in any way directly or indirectly to be used for any deliveries to Ukraine. Those come from other budgets.

The FT article is based on claims from the conservative opposition btw. Which pretty much got refuted by government side politicians pointing out that the only reason the 100 billion fund is necessary is to make up for lack of funding during the previous 16-year conservative tenure.
Thanks for the clarifications/corrections!

Has there been any announcements regarding significant new orders of ammunition/missiles from the German government? So far I could only find an order of 300,000 rounds of ammo for Ukrainian Gepards, delivery starting this summer: Rheinmetall wins major order for medium-calibre ammunition – 300,000 rounds for Gepard anti-aircraft tank - EDR Magazine
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Has there been any announcements regarding significant new orders of ammunition/missiles from the German government?
There are plans to finance replacing ammunition delivered from Bundeswehr depots to Ukraine from the federal budget for Ukraine aid, although this is yet to be negotiated between Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Finance. That's mostly some 22 million rounds for small arms, somewhere around 20,000 rounds for artillery and somewhere around 120,000 explosive devices, grenades and mines so far.

In general there was an order for new 155mm SmArt rounds in November (the size of which is classified and has been rumoured on, especially regarding integrated follow-on orders in the contract) and the contract for missiles for Heron TP was apparently signed around the same time.

Beyond that most ammunition orders for the Bundeswehr go through framework contracts. The Bundeswehr has 24 active framework contracts for a variety of ammunition types that it can order certain agreed-upon quantities per year from. In 2022 they apparently ordered ammunition for some 780 million Euro from these. There were apparently about 50-60 smaller individual ammunition orders outside these framework contracts in 2022.
 

SolarisKenzo

Well-Known Member
The anger that this deal released in other EU countries, especially France and Italy, can barely be described.
From my point of view, the German choice is absolutely impossible to understand, particularly for a country like Germany that had all the possibility to choose otherwise.
Buying an american-israeli missile system is a political and strategic suicide, in fact the EU military committee reported to Germany their doubts and other European countries are extremely harsh on the Germans.

It's pointless to approve the strategic compass act, the EPF, to improve and enlarge EDA and EDF, to work to merge companies if you decide to buy a product from two of the most strict countries in terms of arms sales.
Disgraceful choice...

There's still hope this deal doesn't take place...
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Germany, France, Italy, have nothing but American and Israeli options to choose from. No Euro country produces an equivalent.

And of course, they don't have to buy whatever Germany buys.
 
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SolarisKenzo

Well-Known Member
Germany, France, Italy, have nothing but American and Israeli options to choose from. No Euro country produces an equivalent.

And of course, they don't have to buy whatever Germany buys.
My concern is not about the performances of the product.
My concern, and the concern of many, is the political choice behind this deal.
Buying such a product is in plain disagreement with the Strategic Compass and many other European agreements regarding defence.

The point Is not " is there an equivalent option? ".
The point Is that they are ( probably ) buying a product outside of Europe, with zero participation at EU level, without having before asked to the other countries and defence providers for an alternative.
Germany seems to have this behavior of always wanting to be dependent from someone else that is outside of Europe ( Us, China or Russia).

Why didn't they pushed for the Eu-Hydef of Twister program, instead of buying off-the-shelf from Israel?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I would say the devastation caused by Russian missiles in Ukraine strongly motivated Germany to purchase something that exists and works now rather than some future Euro concept that partners will argue about (capability and workshare). Just my two cents.
 

SolarisKenzo

Well-Known Member
The only realistic future that has Russian missiles launched against a EU country is the one called " nuclear war ".
Having or not having a battery or so of Arrow 3 in an all-out nuclear war is probably totally irrelevant.
Helping and working on European strategic autonomy and know-how is not irrelevant for Germany, in every possible future.

As I said, I'm not arguing about the Arrow 3 itself.
If most European countries agreed on buying the Arrow, there would be no problem at all.
But Germany is, like always, walking alone...
 
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