Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

recce.k1

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Just bringing things back to RNZN matters and the future fleet in particular the replacement manned patrol capability, as a potential option the latest rendering of the Future Danish Arctic Patrol Vessel has been released and featured on Naval News 6 September.

Of a similar design to the Baltic Patrol Vessel this new design is optimised for North Atlantic patrolling, could the RNZN be interested in assessing this vessel for both Southern Ocean patrol and Pacific patrol functions (assuming it is also configured to operate in warmer/ocean climates)? Perhaps as another option alongside the Canadian Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ship (AOPS)?

Info gleaned from the video (doesn't seem to be much else on the internet as yet):

It's the replacement for the Thetis class (3,500 tonnes).
Designed with a "heavy" sensor suite.
Carries an organic helicopter/includes a hanger (the Danish navy operate MH-60R's so assume the hanger will fit this type).
Ice breaking capacity - up to 1m of old ice / 1.5m of new ice.
High speed - increased power engines (details weren't clarified).
Long duration (operate for several months supporting up to 80 people).
Mission deck, modular, support surveillance equipment, SF embarkment.
Length up to 120m (10-12m longer than Baltic patrol vessel).
Timeline delivery for the Danes - 2029 3rd quarter/1 vessel per year.

Some screenshots from the Naval News video. Note the high sides and enclosed mission bays (both sides and rear) protecting the vessel in high sea states.
Screenshot 2025-09-20 173349.png

The following two diagrams are renderings of the Baltic patrol vessel but apparently the same configuration is used in the Arctic Patrol Vessel.
Screenshot 2025-09-20 173508.png

Screenshot 2025-09-20 173537.png


Some shots of the modular mission deck.
Screenshot 2025-09-20 173615.png
 
K

koxinga

Well-Known Member
A question from a non Australian/New Zealander, why does consideration of platform is centered around what Australia does or have, when budgets are tight? Why not, say South Korea?

The Philippines Navy are getting a good deal on their Korean frigates (Miguel Malvar class, USD250mil), plus a number of other assets like OPVs. Comparatively, defense budgets between the Philippines and NZ are somewhat in the same ballpark as well. Anything else could probably be accomdated by the Koreans.
 
spoz

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Because the Kiwis would like to be interoperable with Australia wherever possible. There are training and other logistics benefits as well as being able to share tactical doctrine. We have a long history of operating together and, given the realities of geography, that will continue. Commonality makes it easier. Although it’s not an absolute requirement as is evidenced by, for example, the differing ANZAC class upgrade paths.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The RNs Multi Role Strike Ship (MRSS) program could be an interesting option for NZ, especially the more warlike ones with a frigate level combat capability.

The Netherlands are apparently also interested, looking at it as a replacement for the Rotterdam class LPDs and Holland class OPVs.

Such a ship could replace frigates, OPVs, and Canterbury, not just in their existing roles, but also serve as a drone mothership and unscrewed capabilities evolve.
 
Todjaeger

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
koxinga said:
A question from a non Australian/New Zealander, why does consideration of platform is centered around what Australia does or have, when budgets are tight? Why not, say South Korea?

The Philippines Navy are getting a good deal on their Korean frigates (Miguel Malvar class, USD250mil), plus a number of other assets like OPVs. Comparatively, defense budgets between the Philippines and NZ are somewhat in the same ballpark as well. Anything else could probably be accomdated by the Koreans.
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I agree that the purchase by the Philippine Navy does appear to be a good deal for them, particularly given how long Philippine Navy and their armed forces generally, have struggled to get modern kit.

Having said that, what looks like a good deal for the Philippines does not mean that it would be a good deal for New Zealand. Looking at what specs are available for the Miguel Malvar-class frigate, it appears to be a frigate that is slightly smaller than the RNZN's current ANZAC-class frigates and with a bit less displacement. Further, excepting the inclusion of AShM, the combat capabilities appear to be a bit less. A 76 mm/62 gun vs. the current Mk 45 5"/127 mm, and 16 VL MICA instead of the current 20 Sea Ceptor, so a smaller main gun and fewer short-ranged air defence missiles, which themselves are slightly shorter-ranged at ~20 km vs. ~25 km. Given that I feel the RNZN's frigates are currently under equipped should hostilities break out, going with new vessels that are possibly roughly comparable in capability would only make sense to me if NZ found itself without other options available in terms of getting replacement frigates delivered prior to the current frigates needing to be decommissioned.

Lastly, we have a contract price of some USD$250 mil. (2021 dollars) per vessel. That makes me wonder how overall capable and compatible the weapons, sensors, datalink and CMS fitout is. IIRC the general guideline is that the shipboard electronics, sensors and CMS will usually comprise a third or more of the initial cost of a vessel, and between that and the weapons fitout that can easily equal half the initial purchase price for a vessel. If these ratios hold true for the Miguel Malvar-class frigate as well, then the sensor and CMS fitout likely cost ~USD$80 mil. in 2021 dollars give or take a little. Now IIRC when Australia purchased pieces of Aegis kit from the US for the Hobart-class DDG's around 2007, they were paying something like USD$200 to 250 mil. per vessel, and what was being purchased was not even the full sensor, CMS and shipboard electronics suite.

That large a difference in price, especially given how much time has passed, makes me wonder how well the Philippine frigate's sensors and CMS would perform compared to what NZ or Australia use in their ANZAC-class frigates.
 
StevoJH

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Volkodav said:
The RNs Multi Role Strike Ship (MRSS) program could be an interesting option for NZ, especially the more warlike ones with a frigate level combat capability.

The Netherlands are apparently also interested, looking at it as a replacement for the Rotterdam class LPDs and Holland class OPVs.

Such a ship could replace frigates, OPVs, and Canterbury, not just in their existing roles, but also serve as a drone mothership and unscrewed capabilities evolve.
Click to expand...
I thought the Netherlands pulled out? Originally they were considering a joint procurement program, but I thought the Dutch pulled out due to the RN wanting a much more robust self defence capability (and hence more expensive platform).

Depending on cost, such a ship would probably be quite ideal for smaller navies as long as the compromises inherent can be minimised.
 
V

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
StevoJH said:
I thought the Netherlands pulled out? Originally they were considering a joint procurement program, but I thought the Dutch pulled out due to the RN wanting a much more robust self defence capability (and hence more expensive platform).

Depending on cost, such a ship would probably be quite ideal for smaller navies as long as the compromises inherent can be minimised.
Click to expand...
Smaller navies can benefit from optioning up and procuring bespoke, improved versions of designs developed for major navies.

The existing design and its core architecture and systems, with extra capability inserted to fulfil roles the larger navy has specific platforms for.
 
K

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Todjaeger said:
I agree that the purchase by the Philippine Navy does appear to be a good deal for them, particularly given how long Philippine Navy and their armed forces generally, have struggled to get modern kit.

Having said that, what looks like a good deal for the Philippines does not mean that it would be a good deal for New Zealand. Looking at what specs are available for the Miguel Malvar-class frigate, it appears to be a frigate that is slightly smaller than the RNZN's current ANZAC-class frigates and with a bit less displacement. Further, excepting the inclusion of AShM, the combat capabilities appear to be a bit less. A 76 mm/62 gun vs. the current Mk 45 5"/127 mm, and 16 VL MICA instead of the current 20 Sea Ceptor, so a smaller main gun and fewer short-ranged air defence missiles, which themselves are slightly shorter-ranged at ~20 km vs. ~25 km. Given that I feel the RNZN's frigates are currently under equipped should hostilities break out, going with new vessels that are possibly roughly comparable in capability would only make sense to me if NZ found itself without other options available in terms of getting replacement frigates delivered prior to the current frigates needing to be decommissioned.

Lastly, we have a contract price of some USD$250 mil. (2021 dollars) per vessel. That makes me wonder how overall capable and compatible the weapons, sensors, datalink and CMS fitout is. IIRC the general guideline is that the shipboard electronics, sensors and CMS will usually comprise a third or more of the initial cost of a vessel, and between that and the weapons fitout that can easily equal half the initial purchase price for a vessel. If these ratios hold true for the Miguel Malvar-class frigate as well, then the sensor and CMS fitout likely cost ~USD$80 mil. in 2021 dollars give or take a little. Now IIRC when Australia purchased pieces of Aegis kit from the US for the Hobart-class DDG's around 2007, they were paying something like USD$200 to 250 mil. per vessel, and what was being purchased was not even the full sensor, CMS and shipboard electronics suite.

That large a difference in price, especially given how much time has passed, makes me wonder how well the Philippine frigate's sensors and CMS would perform compared to what NZ or Australia use in their ANZAC-class frigates.
Click to expand...
If RNZN wants to wear the big boys pants, then it must come with the sort of money to buy them. If the money is there, the options are there, whether Mogamis or Type 26s/Hunters. Even the Koreans will be well placed to offer their AEGIS capable or ANZAC compatible frigates .

As for a capability or lack of with the strategic situation / threat landscape that NZ facrs using a Miguel-Malvar class, I would imagine the Philippines have it much worse, since they have an active dispute on SCS and Chinese forces stationed directly at their door steps
 
recce.k1

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Aerojoe said:
A sizeable chunk of change to get Otago back out on the water 'Obsolete systems' part of $35m reboot to fill in for sunk navy ship | RNZ News. Interesting that it will take 18 months (if not more) to get a replacement (not a true replacement but rather another patrol resource) activated. Otago was obviously in very very cold storage.
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Appears to be due to timing of the availability of the dry dock at Devonport (and from that, the workforce required).

FFH Te Mana came out of dry dock mid-July after being laid-up for a year long maintenance period.
The ship has undergone some major work, including a refurbished propulsion system, communication upgrades and extensive work on the ship’s hull. Commander Bone says the ship has had 350 days in drydock. In that time, more than 60 hull sections – more than 130 tonnes of steel – have been replaced. There have been several “firsts” for this particular frigate refurbishment, including the full removal and inspection of the tail shaft, and installation of the latest communications upgrade
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OPV Otago then took her place in dry dock about a week later (late July) and looks like she will also be laid-up for up a year. From your RNZ article that appears about right for the work being undertaken:
"The reactivation involves significant engineering work to replace obsolete systems and restore operational readiness," it told RNZ on Tuesday. That included overhauling the engines and putting in a new water ballast treatment system. It must achieve what is called "Operational Class Certification" through the Lloyd's Register before it can sail again.
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Pretty sure I read years ago the OPV's would be due for a mid-life upgrade in the early 2020's, so looks like this is now being addressed, somewhat.

All we could hope for next is some prudent joined-up thinking with Govt and Defence so that once OPV Otago's maintenance period is completed next year then funding is released for OPV Wellington to take her place in dry-dock to also be regenerated and brought back into service.
 
A

Aerojoe

Member
recce.k1 said:
Pretty sure I read years ago the OPV's would be due for a mid-life upgrade in the early 2020's, so looks like this is now being addressed, somewhat.
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What would a mid-life upgrade involve? Anything that would result in a lift in capability or is it instead a simple modernisation of current capability?
 
Todjaeger

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Aerojoe said:
What would a mid-life upgrade involve? Anything that would result in a lift in capability or is it instead a simple modernisation of current capability?
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Not sure how much space or displacement is really available for any significant increase in capability. One needs to remember that due to some early issues with the design and the ice strengthening of the hull, that put limitations on how much more could be added to the vessel in the future before the ice belt would end up getting submerged and no longer providing any real protection.

There is also the reality that the OPV's were designed and built to be OPV's, which meant that they were neither designed nor built to include comprehensive combat systems or advanced sensors and CMS. To try and shoehorn such systems at this point would likely require portions of the hull and/or superstructure to get redesigned and rebuilt in order to accommodate more advanced systems as well as the necessary power generation and cooling required to operate such systems.
 
Catalina

Catalina

Active Member
Rob c said:
in reality I beleve it was to cut the expenditure and that will be the theme from now on, lots of good words and as little action as possible.
Most NZ polliticans are hard wired to firstly look at what will get them re-elected ahead of what is happening in the world outside of NZ.
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Rob's assessment is spot on.

When our nation lost The Honourable Ron Mark as Minister of Defence we lost a valued and experienced Defence advocate.

Ron-Minister-Govt-House-e1652503718518.jpg.

I always found Ron very approachable and easy to talk with. His ongoing work and advocacy of the defence of Ukraine is also most commendable.
 
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