German Bundeswehr

swerve

Super Moderator
Getting a little off track from the Bundeswehr...



The problem with the E3's is they are all based off the same aircraft and that aircraft logistics are essentially dead. As dead as a 707 airliner.

So its not just one or two airframes that have high airframe hours, the entire fleet is fast approaching the stage where it will no longer be possible to be flight worthy. The large number of airframes still operational is actually a huge problem in depleting spares and logistics. Due to a lack of spares, items that need replacement come off any are remanufactured and then put back on, which takes time and money.

This has been an issue for a long time, the US was aquiring aircraft for spares since the 90's.

707 based aircraft were the most expensive aircraft for the USAF to operate. The E8/E4 were running around nearly $90m a year! In 2018. The only aircraft that comes close is the B2 bomber.



The E3 is also technically outdated. It is not designed for a modern 21st battlefield with stealth aircraft, low observable missiles, drones, modern jamming and spoofing. E7 has extremely good sensor fusion, and great situational awareness. It can operate in a complex battlespace with peer adversaries.
Yes, E-3 is out of date. But it's a hell of a lot better than nothing & not counting the USAF there are 20 of them operating in Europe, & it isn't the only AEW aircraft operating in NATO or soon-to-be-NATO Europe: there are 4 Turkish E-7, 2 Italian G550 CAEW, & 2 Swedish & 4 Greek Erieye, plus 3 French navy E-2C.

A replacement for E-3 should have been ordered years ago, for the reasons you give, but at least something's being done. Italy's getting more G550 AEW, Sweden's going to replace its current SAAB 340 Erieye with Globaleye, & perhaps increase numbers, & the UK's buying E-7 (converted from secondhand airframes to speed up delivery, in addition to plans to replace E-3 - eventually.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think the likelihood of a kinetic attack on Ramstein would be much lower than a kinetic attack on a joint Australian/US base. The reason being that a kinetic attack on Ramstein would trigger NATOs article 5. Cyber attacks below article 5 threshold would be likely though.
I don't think article 5 deters China at all. China doesn't want to invade NATO, it wants NATO to bend its knee to it. Ultimately, it probably expects NATO to place its security arrangements with China, and kick the US out of NATO.

China isn't going to launch a tank charge through the Fulda gap. They are quite able to make devastating strikes from China without ground forces. China throwing its soft and grey power around is a real thing, and something that would on its own, likely crush some NATO states.

Its clear any action China takes on Taiwan would bring the US in immediately, and likely US allies, which include the UK and Canada and US and Canada are way down on the threat list to China behind things like South Korea and Japan.

Take the US, Canada and the UK out of NATO, and what extra expeditionary capabilities does NATO field that would be able to rock into China's doorstep in a meaningful way. Would they even be able to make it there if China encouraged some other actors to annoy NATO forces outside of NATO territory.

And how happy would NATO nations do that if the the US is loosing 50 fighters a day and 5 destroyers a week, Guam being laid waste and bare taking heavy losses, while Korea, Japan are taking loses in the thousands per day.

This is assuming Russia is just sitting there, doing nothing in Eurasia while the rest of the world breaks out in chaos. NATO may find it strategically more comfortable to only put Russia on its war list.

Yes, E-3 is out of date. But it's a hell of a lot better than nothing & not counting the USAF there are 20 of them operating in Europe, & it isn't the only AEW aircraft operating in NATO or soon-to-be-NATO Europe: there are 4 Turkish E-7, 2 Italian G550 CAEW, & 2 Swedish & 4 Greek Erieye, plus 3 French navy E-2C.

A replacement for E-3 should have been ordered years ago, for the reasons you give, but at least something's being done. Italy's getting more G550 AEW, Sweden's going to replace its current SAAB 340 Erieye with Globaleye, & perhaps increase numbers, & the UK's buying E-7 (converted from secondhand airframes to speed up delivery, in addition to plans to replace E-3 - eventually.
But there is a giant big capability hole.

Currently look like being filled by a non-NATO country located very far away. One that the EU sees as a trade threat greater than Iran or China or Russia.

And yet we are being told to all sign up to NATO. The thing we outside NATO, are propping up.
But I am not sure article 5 mean much to a power that intends to wipe the US out of the pacific, wiping the US off US territories like Guam, and is located in Asia.

Both the US and UK panic buys aren't exactly filling people with confidence. Sweden is literally just joining NATO now, Turkey is half out of NATO, and at high level tension with Greece. Turkey and Greece invested in these capabilities because they knew NATO doesn't prioritise their security needs. Two Italian CAEW which were bought partly for work offset reasons (Aermacchi M-346 sale) its hardly mind blowing AEW capability.

Getting back to Germany, Germany should be looking at making itself a bit more of a complete spectrum force. Those forces/capabilities can sit under NATO command, but be maintained by Germany, and ensured they can be tasked for needs by Germany if required.

NATO AEW capability is a perfect microcosm of issues within NATO.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I don't think article 5 deters China at all. China doesn't want to invade NATO, it wants NATO to bend its knee to it. Ultimately, it probably expects NATO to place its security arrangements with China, and kick the US out of NATO.
It would be a big mistake of China to ignore article 5. Europe is a "slumbering giant" that you just don't want to wake up. Nobody has seen Europe on a war footing since WW2.

Russia clearly underestimated the resolve of NATO (and even the Russians did not attack NATO proper). China must not do an even bigger mistake. However I think the Chinese realize how dangerous it will be, and will therefore not do anything that could trigger article 5.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Bundestag has passed funding for replacing the directional anti-tank mines delivered to Ukraine.

In total 2,600 replacement units for DM22 PARM will be bought for 68 million Euro, to be paid separately from the Ukraine support fund. The contract includes an option for 10,000 further units for an undisclosed price, which would have to be ordered separately from the defence budget.

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In addition, funding was passed for procurement of new cryptographic/communications gear, with most of the below 292 million to be paid from the 100 Billion Fund.

This includes 690 SvFUA communications sets for 130 million, to equip:
- all Puma IFV
- IRIS-T SLM batteries
- divisional HQ of Division 2025 / 10th Armoured Division
- the GÜZ training center

SvFUA is SOVERON D by Rohde & Schwarz.

Equipping Puma with SvFUA was required by the budget committee when they okayed the Puma S1 upgrade a while ago. The Bundeswehr at the time wanted to make it "optional". Offhand that is also the reason why not "all" the funding comes from the 100 Billion Fund.


It also includes 1350 cryptographic IP telephones, replacing current ISDN-based systems for 70 million Euro. These are apparently used in mobile HQs for communications requiring NATO Secret classification. The units to be bought are explicitly "robust" (i.e. for field use), an "indoor use version" is to be procured separately later.

Part of the package are also 51 new cryptographic radio systems for the directional radio links of Patriot systems for 40.5 million Euro.

The Bundeswehr is also buying 9,058 receiver cards for GPS M-Code from the US government for 51.5 million Euro. These are for upgrading GPS navigational systems onboard vehicles and ships. Delivery is planned for 2025-2028, M-Code itself on the US side is currently planned to reach FOC in February 2025.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The budget committee this week signed off on the largest defence funding package this year :

13.4 billion Euro for HIL GmbH for a "contract change" for the duration of 2024 to 2034. Funding comes out of the general defence budget. HIL is the state-owned company for second/third-level maintenance for armoured vehicles of the Bundeswehr. The "contract change" basically means extending their unlimited contract and assigning them a budget that is twice as high (!) as it has been in the last 6 years. This is to expand capacity and services provided.

---

Also signed off was a 59-million contract chance with Airbus/ADAS for operation of Heron TP. This is to finance a 6-month demonstrator operation project at the 51st Tactical Air Force Wing as well as "establishing cybersecurity for the system" and "modifications to spare parts supply". Heron TP is planned to be used as a general MALE drone for reconnaissance, surveillance and close-air support until introduction of Eurodrone in 2030.

Funnily in their press release for both the above they seem to be trying to hide that 13.4b expenditure by putting much more emphasis (three times as much text) on the 59m expenditure.
 
The Parliament's Budget committee will approve the Acquisition of 50 additional Dingo MRAPs on the 15th of November btw.
The contract includes an Option for 183 additional Dingos.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The budget committee this week signed off on the largest defence funding package this year :

13.4 billion Euro for HIL GmbH for a "contract change" for the duration of 2024 to 2034. Funding comes out of the general defence budget. HIL is the state-owned company for second/third-level maintenance for armoured vehicles of the Bundeswehr. The "contract change" basically means extending their unlimited contract and assigning them a budget that is twice as high (!) as it has been in the last 6 years. This is to expand capacity and services provided.
...
Considering the reports of large numbers of armoured vehicles out of action because of lack of maintenance, doubling spending doesn't seem unreasonable, first to clear the backlog & then put things on a sustainable basis.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The HIL contract change was signed last wednesday.

Plans at HIL are basically to:
  • improve staff technical qualifications
  • increase staff numbers by 35% to 3,500
  • increase number of vehicles HIL is responsible for by 35% to 38,500
  • increase internally handled maintenance work hours by 15% to 1.8 million in order to speed up maintenance on existing systems
  • increase third-party contracted maintenance work hours by 110% (!) to 4 million
  • transform their three central maintenance plants to in the future be focused specifically on wheeled vehicles, tracked vehicles and - the third - a service center / hub for their local workshops at army bases.
IOC is planned for 2027 (and that's already e.g. 25% more staff), FOC for 2031.

I'm not exactly sure where the 10,000 extra "systems and vehicles" for whom HIL is gonna do maintenance are going to come from. Maybe they are planning to have BwFuhrparkService hire HIL as a general contractor for maintenance on their heavier vehicles (BwFpS has 6,000 trucks that they provide to the Bundeswehr) with HIL then just handling contracting out that maintenance to third-party civilian companies or something similar.

It should be noted that during the last government there were plans to fully privatize all three maintenance plants of HIL. Compared to that this now is a really good deal.
 

Atomic Warrior

New Member
I just got done reading this entire thread. Thank you all for your input or commentary. This was all very enlightening. Sorry my comment is not enitrly productive to the topic at hand but wanted to give the creator of this thread a round of applause for having the courage to make this thread & tell all about his personal experiences! Then want to thank everyone for their amazing responses to said individual and his concerns & observations about the condition of the current German military!
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'm not exactly sure where the 10,000 extra "systems and vehicles" for whom HIL is gonna do maintenance are going to come from.
P.S. to this: Apparently the 3500 UTF and 4000 WLS trucks (RMMV HX2) shall get their maintenance handled through HIL. Remainder are probably the Caracals for the airborne brigade, with current Wolf vehicles handled inhouse by the Bundeswehr.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Diehl got a contract earlier this month to replace the 100,000 hand grenades Germany delivered to Ukraine. The contract has an option for another 200,000. Selected product is DM51A3, i.e. the current (for the last 20 years) iteration of the DM51 multi-purpose hand grenade the Bundeswehr has been using since the 70s.

The contract was directly handed to Diehl without being tendered out with the official reasoning that Diehl owns the IP for DM51 and has no plans to have another company license-build it. Whether that's all that kosher is something else. The company is subject to a major fine handed out by the EU commission in September last year due to having formed a cartel with competitor RUAG regarding hand grenade sales in Europe since ca 2008.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The first sWaTrgInf (Boxer CRV) has been handed over to the Bundeswehr for testing.

Delivery of the first batch of 19 vehicles (before end of 2025) is subject to this first sWaTrgInf passing a test campaign. This first batch is planned to still be produced in Germany, only afterwards production will switch to Australia.
 

Larso66

Member
I have just read in the Wall St Journal that Germany has significantly increased its defence spending. Can I ask those who are familiar with the debate in Germany what this is likely to look like for the army?

Edit - the article. 14th March

‘Germany is back,” incoming Chancellor Friedrich Merz declared Friday, and it may even be true. He was announcing an unprecedented expansion in military spending that lawmakers are set to approve next week.

The spending deal follows the outline Mr. Merz (of the conservative Christian Democrats, or CDU) and the center-left Social Democrats (SPD) announced this month. Any defense spending above 1% of GDP will be exempt from Germany’s constitutional balanced-budget amendment. The political price of the center-left’s assent is the creation of a separate, debt-financed €500 billion fund for public-works spending over 12 years.

The negotiations over this package speak well of Germany’s seriousness of purpose. The package requires a constitutional amendment, which means Mr. Merz and the SPD had to secure some votes from Green Party lawmakers to reach a two-thirds majority in parliament. The Greens, once a fervently pacifist party, supported the defense portion of the agreement. The main concession they demanded was that €100 billion of the public-works fund be devoted to climate-related spending.
In some ways the package improved in the legislative negotiations. Intelligence and cybersecurity spending will now fall under the umbrella of defense in the budget, meaning these categories also will be exempt from the balanced-budget amendment.
This is a major advance on the €100 billion special procurement fund outgoing Chancellor Olaf Scholz created in 2022 after Russia invaded Ukraine. That fund represented the biggest increase in German defense spending in decades, but in a nod to old political habits it came with a cap and an expiration date. Mr. Merz now promises as much defense spending as it takes for as long as it takes for Germany to provide for its own defense.
What’s changed is that Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine has entered its fourth year while the Trump Administration in Washington sounds like it wants an American withdrawal from Europe. Mr. Putin’s maximalist demands in Ukraine cease-fire negotiations are a warning to Europe that Moldova—or the Baltics—could be next in his sights. It took these events to wake up Europe on defense, but at least something finally has.
Promising to spend money is the easy part. Now Berlin faces a challenge of many years to restock empty arsenals, rebuild depleted military forces, and develop new capabilities—and time is short in a more dangerous world. But perhaps Berlin finally realizes that its post-Cold War holiday from history is over. It’s an important step for Germany, for Europe, and for what American Presidents used to call the free world.
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I have just read in the Wall St Journal that Germany has significantly increased its defence spending. Can I ask those who are familiar with the debate in Germany what this is likely to look like for the army?
The package being talked about now (it's not passed yet, and it's not really safe to say that it will be) is:
  • exempt all defense spending above 1.0% GDP from the (0%) national debt ceiling, i.e. as long as defence expenditure is above ca 44 billion Euro the government can take on unlimited debt to spend on it.
  • also included under this unlimited spending are "civil and population protection" (at federal level), "intelligence services" (only BND, not domestic intelligence), "military aid to illegally attacked nations" (read: Ukraine) and "protection of IT systems" (i.e. cybersecurity regarding infrastructure).
  • The additional 500 billion fund alluded to in the article is for "infrastructure". It is partially being used to buy off parties that the CDU needs to have the overall package passed (primarily the Greens in the parliament and the states in the senate), but only to a limited extent. About 300 billion will remain available to federal spending, 100 billion will go to the states and 100 billion will be used to refinance a "climate transformation" fund that already exists.
  • The 500 billion fund has an allocation limit of 12 years and may only be tapped for "additional expenditure" after the government has reached a minimum investment quota of 10% from the rest of its budget. This stipulation was added in negotiations on behalf of the Greens since the CDU is notorious as a government party to push for extremely low investment (the quota was below 10% throughout Merkel's tenure).
  • German states will also be allowed the same 0.35% GDP debt ceiling as the federal government from now on - instead of the current zero-debt regime.
The 1.0% cap on limited spending allows to shift about 10 billion out of defence and into other government expenditure, replacing it with additional debt. This factually shifts all investment within the defence budget into new debt. The 1.0% are about enough to fund personnel and operations at current levels.

It does however not mean that the defense budget is being increased. The deal is somewhat necessary since the government spent the last bits of Scholz' 100 billion fund by the end of 2024 - without it the defense budget would have to crash to about 1.25% GDP (!).

The deal means that the new government will have the leeway to set the defence budget at whatever spending they deem necessary (subject to parliamentary approval). It is fairly likely that the nominal defense budget will be raised by around 35-40 billion - in order to keep it at at least the current level. That's roughly the ballpark number that was talked about as required.


As a note: Since this expenditure will now be part of the government budget instead of a "special fund" it also means that all the rules for government expenditure will apply to it now. In particular this means no more multi-year funding and no more shifting funds back and forth as you want them. Instead project budgets have to be individually allocated - and approved - annually from now on. Not having this in Scholz' "special fund" was seen as an advantage by the Bundeswehr, since they were fairly free with little oversight on what they spent when on what items.
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
P.S., splitting due to topic:

The deal will likely allow the Federal Ministry of the Interior to significantly increase spending on the THW civil protection force - at least sporadically. This volunteer force with about 80,000 men and women is pretty much scraping by with a budget of only 400-600 million annually, but (unlike the Bundeswehr) they're fairly good at setting up their procurement such that it allows to suddenly e.g. inject 50% more money when it becomes available.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The above financing plan was passed in the Bundestag (lower house) today through the necessary majority of the parties of both the current and the likely new government - i.e. CDU, CSU, SPD and Greens. The former FDP minister that stayed with the current SPD/Green minority government also voted in favour.

The Bundesrat (upper house) is planned to vote on it Friday. The parties involved do not have the necessary majority there by themselves since they are in state governments in varying coalitions with other partners.
They did manage to strongarm one of those minor coalition partners - the Free Voters Union in Bavaria - into agreeing through the threat of ending the coalition state government with them - in behind-closed-door talks yesterday. In return Bavaria will have a statement on certain points where they disagree with the notion added to the protocol.
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The senate passed the law today with significantly more than the required two-thirds majority, since the two states that include The Left surprisingly also voted in favour.
As expected states with coalition governments that include FDP or BSW abstained in the vote.

--

Also, an internal paper of the Ministry of the Interior was leaked today that summarizes a required investment of 30 billion Euro (over a 10-year timeframe) for civil protection within its two agencies BBK and THW.
This includes nearly doubling the two agencies from current about 2600 permanent employees to 4800. Focus points for investment are apparently logistics centers (which were zero-funded in the post-Covid drawdown), drinking water supply in wartime (which THW has planned out, but which haven't been procured), government continuity (i.e. bunkers) and another round of funding for warning systems for the population (they get new ideas every couple years for that...).
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Italian company Leonardo got a framework contract with the Bundeswehr for delivering up to 350 NServTrp equipment sets for up to 113 million Euro.
Initial batch to be procured is 76 units for 22.8 million, to be paid from the 100 billion fund. Further batches are planned from 2027 onwards. The new procurement was signed off by the Bundestag in December, 3 months for signing a contract is somewhat unusual and probably means they had to find financing first.
This is a follow-on contract from 43 units already procured from Leonardo for the VJTF brigade in 2023.

NServTrp (Network Service Troops) are basically containerized (20ft) cabling sets for setting up connections between communication systems, servers and other equipment in field HQs. With fibre-optic cabling they have a range of up to 2 km. Operatively these troops are at home in the IT Battalions of Cyber Domain, not in the Army, but are part of component groups CIR deploys in direct field support of other serices.

THW has also looked into switching their (ca 66) cabling troops in command platoons to fibre-optics for similar reasons, and has had exchanges with the Bundeswehr on the topic including getting some insight into an earlier version of NServTrp. With the money now suddenly available might see some upgrade in that regard too, although of course not an identical setup.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The five organisations representing the "white" civil protection, i.e. medical (German Red Cross, DLRG, ASB, JUH and Malteser), published a joint "position paper" today demanding the annual funding for civil protection to be raised from ca 0.12% of the federal budget to minimum 0.5%. That would be about 2.4 billion per year.

Program-wise, besides more/better material they're calling for money for the EHSH and PUK training courses they hold for central civil protection agency BBK for "first aid with self-protection aspects" and for "care support personnel". The two programs aim to train the population in first aid and care specifically under wartime conditions, i.e. addressing complications such as a possible lack of clean water, unhygienic conditions, having to manually move bedridden people etc. The courses are modularized towards specific target groups such as people taking care of elderly, families with young children, migrants etc. The target of these courses is to medium-term train around 6 million (!) people; about 450,000 of that were achieved by 2024 in EHSH courses, after that project funding was frozen by the government.

The two programmes can partially be seen as personnel relief for the "white" forces since in wartime they would be called upon to provide medical units supporting the Bundeswehr - and there are no reserves for that currently.

They're also asking for laws to be changed with regard to volunteers (mostly: compensation for salaries, availability regardless of employers' will - in particular for training and exercises) to bring their volunteers in line with the legal situation for THW volunteers.

At least on DRK side they're also "innocently" putting up a photo of material of a MBM unit as well with the press release, while never mentioning it otherwise. MBM is a project to create units for operating tent cities for 5,000 people per unit as emergency accomodation. Originally 10 units were planned for a total capacity of housing 50,000 people, funding stopped early last year after the first two. DRK and ASB are the organizations running those two units.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Bundeswehr ordered additional FLW100 and FLW200 RWS from KNDS mid-February this year (published March 29th), in the form of a 10-year framework contract with adhoc orders as needed. Total volume is around 220 million Euro. Contract wasn't tendered out, but issued as a follow-on to existing contracts going back as far as 2008.

The contract does not include the weapons to be mounted in the RWS themselves (MG5A1 for FLW100, GMW or M2 QCB for FLW200).

The new order will bring the total number of RWS of the two types in use on Bundeswehr vehicles to up to 2584 (from around 1800 today). The initial order for the framework contract will be about 250 units in 2026-27 for 45th Armoured Brigade in Lithuania.
 
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