Unmanned and Autonomous Air Vehicles

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hauritz

Well-Known Member
There doesn't seem to be a thread dedicated to Unmanned and Autonomous Air Vehicles. There probably should be. There seems to be a lot of information about what UCAVs can and can't do. Generally I think we tend to overestimate the capabilities of these aircraft, or at least where the technology stands today. Certainly we have seen a rapid advancement in this technology in even just the last few years but I would hesitate at calling it game changing, at least not yet.

A store bought FPV drone may be cheap but they also lack range and payload capability. They are useful ISR tools and do bring some kinetic capability to the battlefield but they are still a long way off replacing large long ranged platforms.

warontherocks.com

Drones are Transforming the Battlefield in Ukraine But in an Evolutionary Fashion - War on the Rocks

Headlines would lead one to conclude that the age of killer robots has arrived. In Ukraine, autonomous drone swarmssupposedly hunt for enemies and
warontherocks.com
 
drone.warfare

drone.warfare

New Member
I agree! Would love to see something here. By the way, feel free to check out my new site specifically related to this. We clearly have the same interest! Link deleted - Feanor

Doug
 
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M

Masquerader

Member
The first American drone built for reconnaissance was the Radioplane MQM-57 Falconer (company designation RP-71), a derivative of the company's OQ-19/KD2R/MQM-33 target drone family. The Falconer relied on a KS-54 or KS-61 camera system (including a KA-39A or KA-30 still picture camera respectively) to take photos of enemy territory, and it served with US Army units until the 1970s.


 
H

hauritz

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Several things have become obvious in the Russian Ukrainian air war. First of all it is Russia’s inability to establish air superiority. Remember we are talking about the Russian Air Force which boasts huge numbers of aircraft including some that are on bleeding edge of aeronautical technology.

Then of course we are seeing the rapid rise in capability of the drone. We aren’t necessarily talking about anything particularly sophisticated here. Mostly small quadcopters often carrying tiny payloads.

These small drones have a number of advantages over traditional weapons systems however. First of all is their accuracy. They can fly around a tank or other vehicle looking for an open hatch or some other obvious weak spot. They can travel down trenches or into open tents. They can be programmed to loiter waiting for a suitable target to present itself. Lately we have seen basic AI thrown into the mix making them even more difficult to deal with.

The other advantage is these weapons are cheap. Cheap enough to acquire in massive numbers. Cheaper than the weapons required to shoot them down.

A few weeks back my son was showing off his skills with a small store bought camcopter. He demonstrated what it would feel like to be under attack by a drone. The experience under actual combat conditions would be terrifying. No way could you hope to shoot it down and no way could you avoid being hit by it if you were targeted. It was like being swooped by magpies only faster and more persistent.

You have to wonder how ground forces could deal with swarms of these things.

www.aspistrategist.org.au

World War I was the crucible of air power. Ukraine looks the same for drones | The Strategist

Some experts on air power will tell you that Ukraine is not the best place to learn lessons. Neither side in Ukraine enjoys air superiority, retired Lieutenant General David Deptula of the Air Force Association’s ...
www.aspistrategist.org.au www.aspistrategist.org.au
 
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drone.warfare

drone.warfare

New Member
hauritz said:
Several things have become obvious in the Russian Ukrainian air war. First of all it is Russia’s inability to establish air superiority. Remember we are talking about the Russian Air Force which boasts huge numbers of aircraft including some that are on bleeding edge of aeronautical technology.

Then of course we are seeing the rapid rise in capability of the drone. We aren’t necessarily talking about anything particularly sophisticated here. Mostly small quadcopters often carrying tiny payloads.

These small drones have a number of advantages over traditional weapons systems however. First of all is their accuracy. They can fly around a tank or other vehicle looking for an open hatch or some other obvious weak spot. They can travel down trenches or into open tents. They can be programmed to loiter waiting for a suitable target to present itself. Lately we have seen basic AI thrown into the mix making them even more difficult to deal with.

The other advantage is these weapons are cheap. Cheap enough to acquire in massive numbers. Cheaper than the weapons required to shoot them down.

A few weeks back my son was showing off his skills with a small store bought camcopter. He demonstrated what it would feel like to be under attack by a drone. The experience under actual combat conditions would be terrifying. No way could you hope to shoot it down and no way could you avoid being hit by it if you were targeted. It was like being swooped by magpies only faster and more persistent.

You have to wonder how ground forces could deal with swarms of these things.

www.aspistrategist.org.au

World War I was the crucible of air power. Ukraine looks the same for drones | The Strategist

Some experts on air power will tell you that Ukraine is not the best place to learn lessons. Neither side in Ukraine enjoys air superiority, retired Lieutenant General David Deptula of the Air Force Association’s ...
www.aspistrategist.org.au www.aspistrategist.org.au
Click to expand...
The statement from Ukraine's military commanders and news journalists is that the sound of drones in the field are omni-present at this point. It's affecting all aspects of the war from the point of air superiority as you mentioned to supply chain and logistics; even battlefield medicine is impacted with frequent attacks on medics trying to remove the wounded. The level of innovation and iteration with drones is striking and causing all militaries and irregulars to rethink their strategy and tactics. As another example, the M1 Abrams provided to Ukraine by the US and allies were pulled back because they turned out to be too vulnerable on this modern battlefield. At $6M/unit and 6000 units and a major strategy investment, what do you do when a few well-placed drones can disable them? And these are just early days.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The offence versus defence merry-go-round never stops. You can bet there is a $hitload of money being poured into anti-drone technology at the moment. Same applies to new missiles and the counter measures needed for neutralising them.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
A somewhat dated article discussing the apparent abandonment of UCAV flying wing aircraft by the US despite earlier promising designs. A lengthy discussion on the merits and advantages of fully autonomous UCAVs versus semi autonomous and man in the loop.
www.twz.com

No Flying Wing UCAVs Being Developed By U.S. Air Force While China Surges Ahead

The U.S. continues to pass over very stealthy, long-range, highly autonomous UCAVs in favor of pursuing lower-cost 'loyal wingman' drones.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
 
H

hauritz

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
John Fedup said:
A somewhat dated article discussing the apparent abandonment of UCAV flying wing aircraft by the US despite earlier promising designs. A lengthy discussion on the merits and advantages of fully autonomous UCAVs versus semi autonomous and man in the loop.
www.twz.com

No Flying Wing UCAVs Being Developed By U.S. Air Force While China Surges Ahead

The U.S. continues to pass over very stealthy, long-range, highly autonomous UCAVs in favor of pursuing lower-cost 'loyal wingman' drones.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
Click to expand...
Even CCAs are blowing out in price. After initially talking about CCAs costing a few million a piece the cost has almost predictably blown out to many times that amount. In the end these might not be the cheap, attritable aircraft that were originally planned.

I think that reality might have already set in for Australia with the decision that the MQ-28 will at least intially be restricted to the ISR role. Realistically something the size of the MQ-28 isn't big enough for the sort of heavy payloads you would expect a strike aircraft to carry.

Just a reminder that we still have a long way to go before we see really capable UCAVs in service.

www.twz.com

Second Batch Of Air Force CCA Drones Could Be 20 To 30 Percent Pricier Than The First

Concerns still loom over how the Air Force will pay for its CCA drones, as well as other advanced next-generation aircraft.
www.twz.com www.twz.com

 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
@hauritz Given the huge investment by many nations in unmanned platforms including autonomous vehicles and AI, I think UCAVs are closer than many suspect. They will be expensive but still less than manned alternatives. No man allows for better kinematic performance and eliminates the fear of losing personnel.
 
H

hauritz

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
John Fedup said:
@hauritz Given the huge investment by many nations in unmanned platforms including autonomous vehicles and AI, I think UCAVs are closer than many suspect. They will be expensive but still less than manned alternatives. No man allows for better kinematic performance and eliminates the fear of losing personnel.
Click to expand...
It would seem that instead of investing in large autonomous drones the US seems to have opted to make aircraft such as the B-21 optionally manned. That seems kind of crazy to me.

Under what circumstances are you likely to want to fly an an unmanned B-21 into combat?

That is one hell of an expensive piece of machinery to send on a potential one way mission. You would be much better building off building a large autonomous UCAV for these sorts of missions. No matter how much they cost they would be cheaper than B-21s.
 
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