French Arms Sales

[Big-E]

They say about half that. Total bill for 294 aircraft is put at ca 30 billion, including development.

I think the Rafale is a great little aircraft but €48,000,000 is a little steep for it's capabilities. It just falls short of the major competitors in it's class. It seems if they want to get foreign sales they need to drop that to say €38 million.

 

[icelord]

Was it not the French who were first in line when Gaddaffi became the Wests pin up boy?
Did they make anything out of that or did the Italians sour their advance?
With Typhoon and F-35 up top of everyones shopping list, Rafale is low priority purchase for most of the West, but Africa is known to spend up on French products, or get their hands on them, And if every Skeptic gets his way, and the F-35 blows out, see a lot of Rafale flyers in Defence Departments Letter boxes.
Plus they seem more interested in everyone elses products at the moment, case in point ADI/Thales Australia

 

[harryriedl]

Was it not the French who were first in line when Gaddaffi became the Wests pin up boy?
Did they make anything out of that or did the Italians sour their advance?
With Typhoon and F-35 up top of everyones shopping list, Rafale is low priority purchase for most of the West, but Africa is known to spend up on French products, or get their hands on them, And if every Skeptic gets his way, and the F-35 blows out, see a lot of Rafale flyers in Defence Departments Letter boxes.
Plus they seem more interested in everyone elses products at the moment, case in point ADI/Thales Australia

large parts of africa have a tradional link with france. i cant see any contrey in africa which has the money for a an adavance fighter like the rafale the only contrey i could think of useing the rafale is south africa but they have brought gripens.

the rafale problem is price

 

[radiosilence]

Admin Edit: Off Topic comments deleted.

Seems like this deal has been stalled...

Morocco is negotiating with Dassault Aviation of France for the purchase of 12 to 18 Rafale combat planes that would be financed by Saudi Arabia, the newspaper Le Tribune reported June 7

link

 

[Big-E]

Admin Edit: Off Topic comments deleted.

Seems like this deal has been stalled...


link

Why would the deal be financed by Saudi Arabia?

 

[Waylander]

And wouldn't be more Mirage 2000-5/7 be a better solution?

I mean a Rafale is not just expensive for a country in Africa but also not very easy to maintain.

 

[radiosilence]

The Mirage 2000-5/7 assembly line will be closing soon. The French are busy trying to get export orders for Rafale. Morocco is looking for some high tech fighters to counter Algeria's recent purchased of Russian fighters. Morocco and Algeria have strained relations over the Western Sahara issue.

 

[radiosilence]

Why would the deal be financed by Saudi Arabia?

The Saudis have excess petro dollars to buy influence.

 

[eckherl]

The Saudis have excess petro dollars to buy influence.

Saudi Arabia pretty much finances quite a bit of equipment for them already don`t they, I have heard that both Morroco and Saudi Arabia have a close relationship.

 

[Waylander]

I don't think that Spain would be very pleased if Morocco gets new state of the art fighters.

The relations there are not very good especially after this ridicilous attempt of Morocco to conquer this mini island in front of their coast owned by Spain.

 

[.pt]

Spain perhaps won´t be pleased, but thats life in EU...
That episode because of that small rock, was a moroccan step to try and put Spanish north African possesion´s on the bargaining table.They are a thorn on the Moroccans.
What adds more stress to this relationship is the overwhelming flow of illegal immigration from Morocco to EU via Gibraltar strait and Spain.
Anyway, i don´t think a few Rafales will make the Spanish tremble, but they will certainly keep an eye on the situation. I think this purchase has more to do with what Radiosilence posted, a counter to Algerian purchases. They are much more afraid of the Algerians than the Spanish these days.
.pt

 

[swerve]

And wouldn't be more Mirage 2000-5/7 be a better solution?

I mean a Rafale is not just expensive for a country in Africa but also not very easy to maintain.

The Mirage 2000 assembly line closed several months ago. Dassault announced in February that it would close, due to a lack of orders, or even anyone negotiating to buy. There are no new Mirage 2000 available, only secondhand, & not many of those. 12 for sale in Qatar, at the moment. The AdlA said recently it can't spare any of what it has at the moment (it was reluctant to release 12 for Brazil, but the government overruled it), & nobody else is selling. And what do you mean, "more"? Morocco doesn't have any. Mirage F.1 (being upgraded with new radar, Mica, AASM, etc) & F-5E.

Dassault insists that Rafale is easier to maintain than Mirage 2000.

 

[Waylander]

With more I mean that you could get more Mirage 2000-5/7 for the same price than by buying Rafales.
But with the line closed my idea is obsolete.

 

[contedicavour]

Dassault is indeed in bad shape... the ultimate proof is that its owners are massively diversifying into media and other non-defence industries. The key issue is that developing the Rafale alone while the rest of Europe went with the Eurofighter consortium or remained loyal to the Americans (latest F16s) - Sweden of course being an exception.

However DCN is in good shape, exporting modified Lafayettes and adapted Scorpenes. Eurocopter, as already mentioned in another post, is also in good shape, especially after the latest US order. GIAT, the manufacturer of Leclerc MBTs is however surviving only via state aid.
The rest of the French defence industry is confortably associated with other European groups into powerful consortiums and alliances, EADS, MBDA, ...

So to summarize, Dassault doesn't necessarily reflect French defence industry, but is a living example of what bad "nationalist" strategies can do ...

cheers

 

[Gladius]

Well.

Morocco is negotiating with Dassault Aviation of France for the purchase of 12 to 18 Rafale combat planes that would be financed by Saudi Arabia, the newspaper Le Tribune reported June 7

This... thing, is not new.

From time to time there are similar rumors/news seemed all regarding to "supposed purchases" of armament carried out by Morocco with charge to external funds, whether those came from Saudi Arabia or from our French neighbors.

The most common are the rumors/news of F-16 bought from United States, or as the last time that the hoax appeared from Netherland. The T-72 to countries of East Europe, Mirage 2000 or in this last occasion Rafales from France. Even one time I see printed on a prestigious spanish newspaper a supposed transfer of 2 frigates O.H. Perry. Of course, in reality nothing at all metioned before came to pass, to this moment.

The purchases of armament on the part of Morocco are being very sporadic and in great measured gutted by its economic situation. In the most cases are friendly nations or the Spanish Government (shocking, I know) the providers of the material, in great measure subsidized, as was the case of the two floreal, or the long expected modernization for its F-1CH/EH fleet.

I don't think that Spain would be very pleased if Morocco gets new state of the art fighters.

The relations there are not very good especially after this ridicilous attempt of Morocco to conquer this mini island in front of their coast owned by Spain.

Why Waylander. nfloorl:

The government of Spain has been providing to Morocco a good deal of its armament and military material since many years ago.

Some examples:

The Corvette Lt. Colonel Erhammanni (Descubierta Class)
The 4 OPVs Khattabii Class (Lazaga Class)
The 6 Patrol Vessels Lt. De Vaisseau Class (Vigilance Class)
The two fire directions WM-25 and the two 76mm OTO-Melara of the Floreals build by France to Marruecos. (A deal at the great cost of 1€).
The 7 CN-235 Aircrafts.
The M-60A3TTS MBTs (Deal acorded by Zapatero's Government)
Hundreds of light vehicles and trucks.
...

Now, if this deal: a 12-16 Rafales to Morocco AF, came to be reality. Perhaps this was the best argument to pass on the Spanish Congress the execution order for the 16 Typhoon options signed by Spain in the Eurofighter Program.

 

[.pt]

Gladius,

The deals you describe, were acorded before or after those "incidents"?
Anyway it is shocking in a way to know that some assets were ceded at simbolic prices (1€??:rotfl ).
Besides those things, perhaps the rationale is that you also need Morocco to cooperate in the immigration matter, as well as having a government that is not fundamentalist on your doorstep?
Anf if it gets your AF an aditional 16 Eurofighters, so be it, let them Mirages come.
.pt

 

[Gladius]

.pt

The MBTs & the WM-25 + OTO-Melara deals, were accorded after the Peregil Island incident.

The M-60A3TTS are in fact the tanks now in service with the two Armored Cavalry Regiments deployed on Ceuta & Melilla garrisons.

 

[atkins3570]

Does anybody know about possible Mirage 2000 sale to Argentina?

 

[radiosilence]

The European Union's arms embargo on China is no longer justified and should be lifted, France's defense minister said on Monday,.....

link

The French have been pushing for sometime now to get the embargo lifted. They are looking to tap into new markets. I wouldn't be surpise if the French decide to break the EU arms embargo and start selling their hardware to the Chinese within the next year or two.

 

[contedicavour]

link

The French have been pushing for sometime now to get the embargo lifted. They are looking to tap into new markets. I wouldn't be surpise if the French decide to break the EU arms embargo and start selling their hardware to the Chinese within the next year or two.

Potentially possible but let's not forget that China doesn't want French jets, ships or tanks, they want French defence technology to be reapplied to their own jets, ships and tanks. That's risky low-margin tech transfer of doubtful help for the most troubled bits of the French defence industry.
What France needs most of all are customers who are happy to buy made-in-France complete weapons systems, ideally like Saudi Arabia who takes everything off the shelf and relies on France for training and maintenance as well (very high-margin business!!)

cheers