Use of the Bayonet

[riksavage]

I note with interest that many images coming out of Afghanistan show the bayonet is still being issued, fitted, and by all accounts used in close-quarter combat on a regular basis

Questions:

How many armies still train to use the rifle / bayonet combination?
Is the bayonet still issued to infantry soldiers world-wide, and
Are the latest generation of infantry rifles fitted for the bayonet?

The below link contains a photo of UK Marines fighting in Afghanistan, it clearly shows the bayonet fitted to the SA80A2. Note also the SA80A2 with grenade launcher, which I doubt can be fitted with the bayonet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...4AVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/03/07/wafghan07.xml

 

[petrac]

As far as I know almost all countries still train with bayonets as part of regular and basic training. Esspecially in close quarters fighting it is handy to be able to respond.
I know some rifles have provisions for a grenade launcher, but then the bayonet is fixed in another position.

I have seen som pictures of Landwarrior or other programs and they clearly show the bayonet fixed as well.

Hope this helps!

 

[merocaine]

The bayonet is still a powerfull phycological weapon, for the user and victim.
There are lots of stories from WW2 about German troops standing up to days of Air and Arti assault, only to break when close assaulted with the bayonet(and vise versa).
This is most evident in the fighting around Mount Casino.
Here German para's stood up to horrendous air attack, but lived in terror of the French Algerian troops, who liked nothing better than attacking at night and using the blade.
There is also the fact that for a soldier it means your going to close with the enemy, face to face, and serves to prepare you for that enventuality.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I note with interest that many images coming out of Afghanistan show the bayonet is still being issued, fitted, and by all accounts used in close-quarter combat on a regular basis

Questions:

How many armies still train to use the rifle / bayonet combination?
Is the bayonet still issued to infantry soldiers world-wide, and
Are the latest generation of infantry rifles fitted for the bayonet?

The below link contains a photo of UK Marines fighting in Afghanistan, it clearly shows the bayonet fitted to the SA80A2. Note also the SA80A2 with grenade launcher, which I doubt can be fitted with the bayonet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...4AVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/03/07/wafghan07.xml

Australia certainly does, though the M9 Buck knife on the end of an F-88 makes for a pretty poor bayonet.

The aggression that goes along with Bayonet fighting, is a good instinct to instill in a soldier, particularly an infanteer...

 

[Sgt.Banes]

I note with interest that many images coming out of Afghanistan show the bayonet is still being issued, fitted, and by all accounts used in close-quarter combat on a regular basis

Questions:

How many armies still train to use the rifle / bayonet combination?
Is the bayonet still issued to infantry soldiers world-wide, and
Are the latest generation of infantry rifles fitted for the bayonet?

The below link contains a photo of UK Marines fighting in Afghanistan, it clearly shows the bayonet fitted to the SA80A2. Note also the SA80A2 with grenade launcher, which I doubt can be fitted with the bayonet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...4AVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/03/07/wafghan07.xml

I only know of some NATO nations, and China using bayonets on fairly modern rifles. And the main one Nation that actually uses bayonets in combat would be in the U.K., and is only for the SA-80.

 

[Waylander]

We don't use a Bayonett here in germany. There is one available for the G36 but it is not in service with the Bundeswehr (And it is not that easy to install).

Instead of this our infantry uses this blade, the Kampfmesser 2000.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...it_Scheide.jpeg/180px-KM2000_mit_Scheide.jpeg

 

[TrangleC]

I think in the 70s and 80s the Bundeswehr soldiers did still learn to use the small shovel (or spavin or whatever is the right translation) (http://www.overcross-shop.de/images/155550g.jpg) for close combat.
The new model isn't really suited for that anymore. (http://www9.yatego.com/images/44b254a652f518.2/27033.jpg) Nobody knows why it still has that razor edge when the handle is so badly suited for chopping anything with it.

 

[Waylander]

It is still trained.
And I had no problems cutting whole woods with it.

The problem is getting it out of its damn tight bag.

 

[old faithful]

It is still trained.
And I had no problems cutting whole woods with it.

The problem is getting it out of its damn tight bag.

ahhh!...the clapp shparten! (probably wrong spelling!) I love the german folding shovel, use it regularly when camping...take the lid off my camp oven,dig a rain trench around my campsite,turn over coals from the fire...its a good tool, and i love that german word...sounds so much better than E-TOOL! (entrenching tool) And yep,the german pouch is a barstad of a thing for the tool!
As far as bayonet training is concerned,imo,it is an essential part of infantry training, to build controlled aggression and self discipline.

 

[Falstaff]

ahhh!...the clapp shparten! (probably wrong spelling!) I love the german folding shovel, use it regularly when camping...

It's "Klappspaten"; but you almost got it. Respect for that! That's exactly the reason why so many of them mysteriously get lost towards the end of people's time at the Bundeswehr

 

[old faithful]

It's "Klappspaten"; but you almost got it. Respect for that! That's exactly the reason why so many of them mysteriously get lost towards the end of people's time at the Bundeswehr

Thanks for that! Its one of the better quality tools out there. Also my 2nd favorite German word!!

 

[eckherl]

We don't use a Bayonett here in germany. There is one available for the G36 but it is not in service with the Bundeswehr (And it is not that easy to install).

Instead of this our infantry uses this blade, the Kampfmesser 2000.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...it_Scheide.jpeg/180px-KM2000_mit_Scheide.jpeg

That looks like it has a Tanto blade, should be quite useful for close in slashing.

 

[Waylander]

Jup, it's a tanto blade.

And it is damned sharp expecially when compared to the knifes they give to the tankers for which being blunt seems to be a natural way of existing.

http://www.hammer-sickle.com/html_dateien/img/waffen_nahkampf/236.jpg

 

[Sgt.Banes]

The United States Marine Corps still uses bayonets as far as P.T. goes.

 

[Chino]

The first SAR-21 rifles issued had no bayonet lug.

Some genius decided that when the Singapore soldier runs out of bullets he should just give in to fate.

But recently, at the National Day Parade, it seems that the current SAR-21 can fit bayonets after all.

 

[Aussie Digger]

The first SAR-21 rifles issued had no bayonet lug.

Some genius decided that when the Singapore soldier runs out of bullets he should just give in to fate.

But recently, at the National Day Parade, it seems that the current SAR-21 can fit bayonets after all.

Are Singaporean soldier issued with an entrenching tool? They make a fine close quarter combat weapon...

 

[Dave H]

The bayonet was used extensively by the British forces in the Falklands war so relatively recently. There are numerous books by those that fought, particularly on Mount Longdon (3 para). I have read every book on the subject (I think...still collecting) which described some of the action of three troops on one man, two to hold the arms out, the other to administer the bayonet. Apparently the amount of clothing worn by some of the Argenine troops made the use of the bayonet difficult, I have read accounts of eye sockets being used...very unpleasant. I will try and dig the actual title out, there are so many.

When the ammo runs out, bayonet, trenching tool and rifle butt gets used. The infantry actions during the Falklands often involved greneades into bunkers then rifle fire and bayonet. The troops account are worth a read, as is a book titled the argentinian fight for the falklands.

The Gurkhas actually showed disappointment that their war ended quickly by te time 5 brigade arrived, they were keen to use the Kukri, apparently the argentinian conscripts werent so keen on it. A true psycological weapon that still has a role.

 

[merocaine]

A true psycological weapon that still has a role.

very true, but it cuts both ways, I remembers reading an interview of a british soldier who suffered nightmares every night, in them he dreams about an argantine he bayoneted to death, the guy was crying for his mother as he was killed. The soldier lived that moment night after night, the blade is so terrible a weapon, because it brings killing face to face, theres a very good reason why most combat is conducted at a distance. Only a phycopath could really feel comfortable killing with the blade. Now with a bomb from a plane there a certain amount of deniablity involved, your hitting the target, not stabbing a guy, whos screaming for his mother, to death...

 

[TrangleC]

the blade is so terrible a weapon, because it brings killing face to face, theres a very good reason why most combat is conducted at a distance.

Well, i don't think that psychological reasons played a big role when firearms replaced swords, axes, lances and maces as the main weapons on the battlefield.

And actually, i think from a psychological point of view it could even have been easier in the old times when close combat was virtually the only kind of combat. I think it's easier to face an oponent eye to eye and to know that your skill actually can help you to survive, instead of just sitting in a trench and waiting for the death you don't see or hear coming.
I'd rather face a enemy in close combat than having a bomb dropped on my head from miles above or being hit by a bullet that comes out of nowhere without any chance to defend myself.

 

[merocaine]

Well, i don't think that psychological reasons played a big role when firearms replaced swords, axes, lances and maces as the main weapons on the battlefield.

And actually, i think from a psychological point of view it could even have been easier in the old times when close combat was virtually the only kind of combat. I think it's easier to face an oponent eye to eye and to know that your skill actually can help you to survive, instead of just sitting in a trench and waiting for the death you don't see or hear coming.
I'd rather face a enemy in close combat than having a bomb dropped on my head from miles above or being hit by a bullet that comes out of nowhere without any chance to defend myself.

I'll have to argue this one, we started with rocks, then flint daggers, then on to spears, then bows, each stage ended up with us getting further and further away from the person who's life you were going to end.
The long bow became the weapon that surplanted the mace and lance on the battle field. Early gunpowder weapons werent as effisent as the bows they replaced, but they were scary, noisy, and made a big flash, the ulitimate war paint, you scared your enemy away. Its reason why the old style dudes dressed in bright colors and wore tall hats. The gun was a success, they got more accurrate, longer range, ect. Now we got the intercontinental ballistic weapon, you can kill from the other side of the planet and never know what a real war is like.

How you would like to die is up to you, its how you want to kill thats the question, if you had a choice, would rather be in a gun fight or a knife fight?
Call me a coward but i would like to be out of range of the death gurgle, I would'ent like to remember that.
(As to how I would like to die if I was in a battle, the snipiers bullet would'ent be to bad, or being blown to atoms, would you even feel it?
Being hacked to death in the mud, not so cool when you think about it.)