EA/18G Growler

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Jassm

I guess as a replacement for the pig its ok. It will be a good maritime strike asset for sure is it cleared for JASSM??? I agree with everyone that its a relief it doesnt touch the JSF budget that is the main thing.
I don't believe the Super Hornet is cleared for JASSM, yet. That had been a joint (US) Navy-Airforce project that the Navy backed out from, IIRC. A mod/test program has started to see about integrating JASSM onto the Super Hornet I think. I can't find the source, but from what I remember, it is currently a question of how many the F/A-18 E/F can carry, if it needs to be carried on the centreline, etc. The SLAM-ER has already been tested on the F/A-18, so despite JASSM selection over the SLAM-ER, it might make an appearance. Such an addition could also increase the offensive capabilities of the AP-3C Orions as well.

-Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I don't believe the Super Hornet is cleared for JASSM, yet. That had been a joint (US) Navy-Airforce project that the Navy backed out from, IIRC. A mod/test program has started to see about integrating JASSM onto the Super Hornet I think. I can't find the source, but from what I remember, it is currently a question of how many the F/A-18 E/F can carry, if it needs to be carried on the centreline, etc. The SLAM-ER has already been tested on the F/A-18, so despite JASSM selection over the SLAM-ER, it might make an appearance. Such an addition could also increase the offensive capabilities of the AP-3C Orions as well.

-Cheers
It's rumoured as part of a strong desire to "risk manage" this acquisition, that RAAF will acquire JSOW and AIM-9X as part of this acquisition. This could account for the apparent price increases (which were all sheer speculation anyway).

The JSOW plus Harpoon II will give the SH an initial standoff weapons capacity and combined with the "legacy" Bugs which should have JASSM integrated by the time that SH is in-service, will ensure RAAF's ability to strike at long ranges.

I'd imagine RAAF would probably integrate JASSM at a later date if necessary. If this rumour is true, it seems unlikely RAAF would also want to acquire SLAM-ER, it'd seem to be a rather unnecessary overlap of capabilities...

If the money's there to acquire additional ordnance, I'd rather HDAM be procurred...
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I'd imagine RAAF would probably integrate JASSM at a later date if necessary. If this rumour is true, it seems unlikely RAAF would also want to acquire SLAM-ER, it'd seem to be a rather unnecessary overlap of capabilities...
I suppose it might depend on both timeframe, and integration costs. Given the relatively small warstock Australia has been keeping... The integration costs for JASSM might be greater (for legacy & Super Bugs) than the purchase cost of SLAM-ER for the Super Bugs I would still think the JSF should get JASSM-ER, but with the Super Bug purchase, that can be ten years or more away. Some overlap isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does depend largely on how much, and for how long. And that depends on when, and how many JASSM are to be fielded.

Another standoff weapon that has entered discussion (in the RNZAF Orion P-3K thread)
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5972&page=2
see post #24

Has been the NSM, which apparently Norway & Australia are cooperating on JSF integration. Not as long-ranged as the SLAM-ER, and with a smaller warhead, it might complement the JASSM/JASSM-ER very well once fielded.

-Cheers
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There is more info on this available from Magoo, so we'll need to wait for a while to see if he's going to post it.

if it doesn't appear within 24 hrs then either AD or myself will post it up here.
 

Falstaff

New Member
Congratulation to you guys from up here. You have a decisive government and budget surpluses is a concept generally not known to the german government:)
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I suppose it might depend on both timeframe, and integration costs. Given the relatively small warstock Australia has been keeping... The integration costs for JASSM might be greater (for legacy & Super Bugs) than the purchase cost of SLAM-ER for the Super Bugs I would still think the JSF should get JASSM-ER, but with the Super Bug purchase, that can be ten years or more away. Some overlap isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does depend largely on how much, and for how long. And that depends on when, and how many JASSM are to be fielded.

Another standoff weapon that has entered discussion (in the RNZAF Orion P-3K thread)
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5972&page=2
see post #24

Has been the NSM, which apparently Norway & Australia are cooperating on JSF integration. Not as long-ranged as the SLAM-ER, and with a smaller warhead, it might complement the JASSM/JASSM-ER very well once fielded.

-Cheers
Australia has already ordered around 250 JASSM missiles (publicly available info states this anyway) so by Australian standards we have a pretty fair stock of this weapon.

The problem with SH, is the integration cost (bar probably some work done when the program was still "Joint") will be borne by us alone.

Given that we are bearing the cost of integrating the missile onto the legacy Bugs already, RAAF may decide they don't need to integrate it onto the SH's. Certainly the cost of integration of this weapon, seems to have ruled out integrating it onto the AP-3C,a s was the original plan. The need may therefore not be there for SH, for some time if at all...
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Australian Aviation Express keeps you up-to-date with all the latest developments in the domestic and international civil, military and commercial aviation industries.

NEWS FLASH - March 6 2007

* RAAF SUPER HORNET DEAL CONFIRMED: Defence Minister Dr Brendan Nelson confirmed today (March 6) that the RAAF will acquire 24 Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornets as a bridging air combat capability for the next decade and a half.
The Super Hornet will, along with the RAAF's upgraded 'Classic' Hornets, fill the capability gap between the retirement of the F-111 in 2010 and the full operational capability of the F-35 Lightning II, expected from around 2018.
Many in industry and the media have questioned the merits of the acquisition despite reported looming delays to the RAAF's anointed New Air Combat Capability (NACC) solution, the F-35 JSF. But the Super Hornet has always been the stated fallback or 'Plan B' option for the RAAF to replace its F-111s and F/A-18A/B Hornets should the F-35 experience substantial delays or cost increases.
"The JSF is the most suitable aircraft for Australia's future combat and strike needs," the Minister said. "Australia remains fully committed to the JSF. But the government is not prepared to accept any risk to air combat and strike capability during the transition to the JSF."
The Minister said Australia's first JSFs would be delivered in 2013, with an IOC achieved in 2015, and that "the Super Hornets will support the transition of Air Force and industry from 1960s technology to the latest 21st century technology."
Minister Nelson also confirmed the F-111 force would be retired in 2010. "The next generation Block II Super Hornets will provide a more flexible operational capability than currently exists with the F-111."
The aircraft are being acquired through US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) channels under the newly established Air 5349 Bridging Air Combat Capability (or BACC) project. They will be based at Amberley and operated by current F-111C unit 1 Squadron. Initial Operating Capability (IOC) is slated for late 2010, with Australian crews expected to begin training on the aircraft in 2009. The first four aircraft will arrive in Australia in early 2010 with the final aircraft delivered by the end of 2011.
As it is intended to be a "bridging" capability, Minister Nelson said that a future government would make the decision in 2014 whether or not to acquire a fourth operational squadron of JSFs to replace the Super Hornets at the end of the next decade, and that it was his view that that should happen.
Australia's F/A-18Fs will be built to the latest Block 2 standard with Raytheon's APG-79 AESA radar; the Integrated Defensive Electronic Countermeasures (IDECM Block 2) system which comprises the ALR-67(v)3 RWR, ALQ-214(v)2 jammer and ALE-50 towed decoy systems; the latest Advanced Crew Station (ACS) which has a 20x25cm direct high resolution colour display directly interfaced with the AESA radar for more precise targeting; and the ability to transmit precise targeting coordinates to the RAAF's 'Classic' Hornets and other strike platforms via a MIDS Link-16 datalink.
The cost of the 24 aircraft package will be $6 billion over 10 years, which will come from supplemental defence funding, which the Minister says will not "impact on the current level of funding for the JSF project, nor (involve) deferrals/deletions from the Defence Capability Plan".
The $6 billion amount includes support costs and the usual non-recurring costs associated with the introduction of any new type into service, with items such as type-specific ground support and test equipment; a Super Hornet simulator which will be located at Amberley and able to be networked to the RAAF's Classic Hornet simulators; pilot and maintenance training courseware and hardware; electronic technical manuals; six spare GE F414 engines; deployment kits and common spares; basic flight test instrumentation of the RAAF's first jet; and an initial three year training support plus 10 year sustainment agreement with Boeing and the US Navy.
Also incorporated in the package will be a comprehensive weapons and sensor suite which, in RAAF service, will likely be unique to the Super Hornet. This will likely include the AGM-154C JSOW GPS guided glide bomb, the advanced AIM-9X air-to-air missile, the ATFLIR targeting pod, and additional Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) helmets for the pilots and backseat weapons system operators (WSO).
Meanwhile Boeing, rather than take the RAAF's F/A-18Fs straight out of US Navy production, may instead look at increasing its Super Hornet production during 2009 and 2010. The company is said to be looking to ramp up production at St Louis to meet potential additional US Navy orders, as well as all the RAAF's deliveries in just two production lots so they're as close to a common configuration as possible.
Initial training for RAAF Super Hornet crews, to be drawn from both F-111 and Classic Hornet ranks, will be conducted with the US Navy at NAS Lemoore in California. "Deliveries will start in 2009, and the first four aircraft are scheduled to arrive in Australia in the first quarter of 2010," a Boeing spokesman said. "The talking plan at this time is that the jets will be dragged back to Australia four at a time, hopefully using the RAAF's new (KC-30B) tankers, but it's not yet a firm plan. They'll come down the line just like a US Navy jet; only we'll paint a kangaroo on it at the end of the line."
"The support agreement is for a fully integrated performance based logistics system, meaning the RAAF will plug direct into the US Navy's logistics contracts," the spokesman added. "The advantage of that is, instead of ordering spares and components for just 24 unique airplanes, you're in a system for 540 airplanes or whatever the final USN number will be. The difference here is that the local off-flightline support will be contractor owned and operated. We'll provide all the support for the aircraft other than that on the flightline.
"This turned out to be the lowest risk and most cost-effective solution."
 

jaffo4011

New Member
its clear that the super hornet purchase is viewed as a stop gap measure by the raaf and will allow the airforce to act effectively until the arrival of the f35.
it also makes sense as they already operate the f18.
it worries me however that they are spending so much on an aircraft viewed as a stop gap when they could have invested in the future with the typhoon or rafale at a similar cost.this would surely have allowed them to have two next generation models in their fleet allowing a truly potent mix of interceptor and strike capability.
now they will have to replace their interceptor fleet earlier than if they had opted for a next gen aircraft.
was it the lead in times of those aircraft that was the major stumbling block?
 

rossfrb_1

Member
With the F model SHornets - do both pilot and weapons systems officer get to use the JHMCS? I was wondering what useful functions (if any) the WSO may be able to do with that system?
Lastly it will be interesting to know if any of that 6 billion is for G model kit!

rb
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Wow, I took my wife out to dinner and 16 posts hit the forum about the SH purchase in 5 hours. :D

Now that I've had time to digest the info I still think it is an excellent outcome for the RAAF. I wondered about the $US4.6bn cost but as Magoo's post points out that is the cost of purchasing, equipping and supporting the aircraft over a ten year period. As others have pointed out the great news is that not only is the funding additional to the JSF budget but it will not be at the expense of other acquisition programs in the Defence Capability Plan.

I note that the RAAF will keep its options open as to whether the SHs will remain after the JSF enters service or will be replaced by a fourth squadron of the Lockheed Martin aircraft. The government always stated an intention to acquire up to 75 JSFs with a decision on an additional 25 or an alternative to be decided later. I think the FA18F purchase will provide time for a decision on the long term equipment of the fourth squadron, whether it be F-35s, FA-18Fs UCAVs or something else, to be properly evaluated without the worry of a shortage of legacy Hornets or flyable F111s forcing a rushed decision.

Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
its clear that the super hornet purchase is viewed as a stop gap measure by the raaf and will allow the airforce to act effectively until the arrival of the f35.
it also makes sense as they already operate the f18.
it worries me however that they are spending so much on an aircraft viewed as a stop gap when they could have invested in the future with the typhoon or rafale at a similar cost.this would surely have allowed them to have two next generation models in their fleet allowing a truly potent mix of interceptor and strike capability.
now they will have to replace their interceptor fleet earlier than if they had opted for a next gen aircraft.
was it the lead in times of those aircraft that was the major stumbling block?
RAAF don't WANT a dual fighter fleet for their next-gen air combat capability. The Rhino is being acquired to cover a perceived gap between the retirement of the F-111 and the introduction of the F-35A. Also the technologies inherent in SH, AESA radar etc will provide RAAF with a deep operational understanding of such things, by the time F-35A is available.

As to why it was chosen ahead of other 4th Gen fighters the reasons include: build lead times, increased support/training costs, incompatible weapon/sensor fits (especially in the case of Rafale), reduced access to external support, ease of introduction into RAAF service etc.

Rafale or Typhoon might have been better if RAAF were simply looking for a next gen fighter and weren't prepared to wait for F-35A, but that is not the situation here. The F/A-18A/B's will still provide the bulk of RAAF's combat power, the SH's will mostly fulfil the strike role (though they will obviously increase RAAF's air defence capacity) left vacant by the retirement of the F-111...
 

RA1911

Member
Another standoff weapon that has entered discussion (in the RNZAF Orion P-3K thread)
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5972&page=2
see post #24

Has been the NSM, which apparently Norway & Australia are cooperating on JSF integration. Not as long-ranged as the SLAM-ER, and with a smaller warhead, it might complement the JASSM/JASSM-ER very well once fielded.

-Cheers
And more importantly. 2 of them will fit internally on the JSF!
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
With the F model SHornets - do both pilot and weapons systems officer get to use the JHMCS?
Yes, both crew members use the JHMCS. It allows both of them to see the same thing at the same time. During strike missions, the WSO will fly 'offence' and the pilot 'defence'. During fighter/OCA missions, the roles will be reversed.

rossfrb said:
Lastly it will be interesting to know if any of that 6 billion is for G model kit!
No Gs...yet! ;)

radioslience said:
Would this be the first time, the RAAF is purchasing AIM-9X sidewinders?
Yes. We currently use ASRAAM on the Hornets and AIM-9M on the Pigs.

swerve said:
The only reason I can think of for buying AIM-9X is to save the cost of integrating Asraam with the F-18E.
RA1911 said:
And more importantly. 2 of them will fit internally on the JSF!
Both correct, except for the F-18E part...we're getting 24 F/A-18Fs.

Cheers

Magoo
 
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heyjoe

New Member
Jhmcs

With the F model SHornets - do both pilot and weapons systems officer get to use the JHMCS? I was wondering what useful functions (if any) the WSO may be able to do with that system?
Lastly it will be interesting to know if any of that 6 billion is for G model kit!

rb
The first F models in USN service only had JHMCS in front cockpit, but rear cockpit installs are underway. JHMCS allows WSO to slave sensors to objects in air and, importantly, on the ground, notably the ATFLIR whereas the C model Hornets had to boresight the nose on an object of interest, which isn't advisable or fun in mountainous terrain like that found in Kosovo. Once designated and ATFLIR slaved to cue, a point can be passed to other aircraft via MIDS/Link 16. USN Super Hornets F model perform critical FAC (A) mission and all of above is very useful in performing that mission especially for the WSO.

Note: A lot of groundwork in two place HMD tactics, techniques and procedures was pioneered by Israeli F-15I
 
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MARKMILES77

Active Member
AD:
Given that we are bearing the cost of integrating the missile onto the legacy Bugs already, RAAF may decide they don't need to integrate it onto the SH's. Certainly the cost of integration of this weapon, seems to have ruled out integrating it onto the AP-3C,a s was the original plan. The need may therefore not be there for SH, for some time if at all...
If you only want to bear the cost of intergrating the JASSM onto one aircraft, why not just intergrate it onto the Super Hornet?

It will be the dedicated strike aircraft.
It has a much longer range.
It will remain in service when the Hornet is retired.

I don't see any advantage in intergrating it onto the Hornet.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
If you only want to bear the cost of intergrating the JASSM onto one aircraft, why not just intergrate it onto the Super Hornet?

It will be the dedicated strike aircraft.
It has a much longer range.
It will remain in service when the Hornet is retired.

I don't see any advantage in intergrating it onto the Hornet.
The work has probably already begun...

However I agree, it SHOULD be integrated onto the SH as well. RAAF may not feel the same way however...
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Even with HUGed bugs the F 18F's will still be our most capable Air Superiority platform, so why would we put AIM 9x on it when weve got an arguably more capable (longer ranged) ASRAAM in the inventory? And with a stand off weapon as capable as JASSM, thats also lethal in a maratime strike role, why would we buy JSOW instead? Sounds like the RAAF wants bare bones cost with this "stop gap" soloution, since its an add on to the budget. Still great news in general, an exellent strike platform that will also keep us well and truely dominant in the region in Air superiority aswell. Gives us much more flexability than the pig (i'll still shed a tear when they retier her though) :wah :dance3
 
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