Houston: I think we have a problem!

[Ths]

I think we have a problem with thread destruction any time we even remotely approach the subject of China:

1. I think some have a problem with distinguishing between evaluation of intend and capability. The least doubt of Chinese equipment not being the worlds best is met by an intense flaming of being anti-chinese (well I for one is getting there) if we not wholeheartedly support China talking over other countries.

2. Interesting threads are being closed because the threads are overflowing with more or less prepostereous claims, which are treated with respect in so far as the dubious claims are countered. I've tried to cut such inane arguments short - with very little success - and gotten a request to try to get my point across in another way. Not entirely fair in my view - on the other hand who cares about a broken nail in the heat of battle.

3. I find it serious that the freedom of debate is being seriously curbed by people that don't have the first notion of free debate. Sort of "Muhammed cartoon" responses to anything that can be construed as critisism of chinese paranoia and dreams. Example: My critisism of the exagerated claims for the J-10 was flooded with hurt feelings - quite drowning my assesment that the plane is probably quite good at what it is designed to do: Shoot down cruise missiles. This contention is supported by the hint involuntarily spilled: The basing of the J-10.

4. The problem is by no means unique: StrategyPage has had its fair share, though there it has mostly been muslim flamers. It is not a problem of debate with people that don't want debate - that is a lost cause anyhow - but that the rest of us are cut off and curbed: The responses of Waylander, Gf-0012, Grand Danois, Galrahn, swerve and others are simplly drowned and the time they can devote is used refudiating bogus claims instead of correcting misconception made in good faith and enlighten the rest of us.

5. I don't have a solution, but we need to preserve this breating space for a direct and productive defence debate that is sorely needed as the media are out to sell copies (that's their business) and the majority of the population is more impressed with Dolly Parton's chest size than the range of the F-22. Not knocking Dolly Parton and her outstanding assets; but ...

 

[Waylander]

Well said.

 

[Tasman]

I agree wholeheartedly with what Ths has said.

As an example of my concerns the China thread, Is China capable of crippling US CSF's in Chinese ses?, has had some very interesting discussion but it is, IMO, getting bogged down by outlandish claims with little or no supporting evidence that then sends members off in a frenzy trying to counteract them. Also the discussions quickly turn political - one statement leads to a response, which leads to another response, etc, and the thread is suddenly in danger of being closed. This has just happened in the Another new fighter jet for Korea in Military Aviation thead which has (correctly I believe) been locked for a few days because a discussion about an aircraft for South Korea turned into, to quote our Webmaster, "nationalistic rhetoric, China and its borders".

I don't have an answer other than dealing with regular offenders in some way. I don't like seeing members banned unless they blatantly ignore the rules, but perhaps people whose responses show they are regularly getting hot under the collar (I think we can all be excused occasionally) or whose responses consistently disrupt the flow of threads, could be suspended from that particular thread for a period of time (a few days might be enough). I don't know if this is technically possible but it would be something in between a warning and a complete membership ban.

Cheers

 

[merocaine]

come on freedom of expression is'ent been curbed on this forum, I for one can tell when a post becomes wishful thinking, the best thing to do is ignore the post unless you really feel it needs to be rebutted.
Since most posters are western I think those kind of threads are not the norm, but when when they do occur sometimes I feel some of the posters can be little dismissive of the opposing points of view....a little diplomancy goes a long way, we're not all defence professionals!

 

[Todjaeger]

come on freedom of expression is'ent been curbed on this forum, I for one can tell when a post becomes wishful thinking, the best thing to do is ignore the post unless you really feel it needs to be rebutted.
Since most posters are western I think those kind of threads are not the norm, but when when they do occur sometimes I feel some of the posters can be little dismissive of the opposing points of view....a little diplomancy goes a long way, we're not all defence professionals!

I agree with freedom of expression, but I think the concern is more about how some threads have been hijacked and/or devolved into "my country Brainania can beat your country Pinkieland" arguments. Such arguments are long on emotion and nationalism while being short on facts and rational discussion, and as such tend not to serve or enrich the readers or participants.

As for being dismissive of the opposing view, yes, that can happen. Particularly when the view is an unsupported assertion which can/is rebutted and then repeated after the rebuttal, again without support. The fix for that which comes to mind, and has been employed before, would be for posts to be edited or deleted when something is asserted but unsupported. Not sure if the mods would go for that though.

Fortunately the spat of attempts at political discussions has died down. Last month it seemed there were a number of attempts to get threads going that had little or nothing to do with defence issues.

-Cheers

 

[Tasman]

I agree with freedom of expression, but I think the concern is more about how some threads have been hijacked and/or devolved into "my country Brainania can beat your country Pinkieland" arguments. Such arguments are long on emotion and nationalism while being short on facts and rational discussion, and as such tend not to serve or enrich the readers or participants.

-Cheers

I think you have put this well.

As for being dismissive of the opposing view, yes, that can happen. Particularly when the view is an unsupported assertion which can/is rebutted and then repeated after the rebuttal, again without support. The fix for that which comes to mind, and has been employed before, would be for posts to be edited or deleted when something is asserted but unsupported. Not sure if the mods would go for that though.

It would be good if the deletion of unsupported comments could be done but this would be a difficult and time consuming task for the mods. I'd hate to see them spending all their time doing this rather than contributing their knowledge and expertise to the discussions.

Fortunately the spat of attempts at political discussions has died down. Last month it seemed there were a number of attempts to get threads going that had little or nothing to do with defence issues.

Let's hope this positive trend continues.

Cheers

 

[gf0012-aust]

I agree wholeheartedly with what Ths has said.

Ditto.

I have to confess to being absolutely frustrated at having to try and have reasonable debate when its apparent that the other party is driven by jingoism (fueled usually by internet information at the expense of real world knowledge).

quite frankly, I have better things to do with my time than spend it arguing with some people motivated purely by issues of national pride rather than rational debate. Often those people in here with actual experience are trying to steer these debates towards more balanced discussions are just frustrated and "bullied by association" out of further participation. Thats a shame as there are some very very competent members in here - and I not only refer to the Def Professionals Group.

I find it doubly frustrating when its apparent that some of the more nationalistic posters don't understand basic concepts, and yet feel the need to argue against people who actually have direct operational experience (in a lot of cases).

I can always tell when its school holidays (unfortunately).

Thankfully, the volume of adversarial threads has lessened.

On another note, I've just got back from 5 days in Seattle and 3 in Vancouver. Even though it was work, I enjoyed myself immensely!

 

[Grand Danois]

On another note, I've just got back from 5 days in Seattle and 3 in Vancouver. Even though it was work, I enjoyed myself immensely!

And you had the luck to do some planespotting?

 

[Tasman]

On another note, I've just got back from 5 days in Seattle and 3 in Vancouver. Even though it was work, I enjoyed myself immensely!

Welcome back gf. I've missed you contributions during the last week.

Cheers

 

[gf0012-aust]

And you had the luck to do some planespotting?

News travels fast! I certainly did. I was lucky enough to see a large flight (7) of F-22's, (2) KC-10's and (2) C-17's roll into Honolulu.

Plus there was a B-52 rotating out, and which I'm guessing was going for a run over to afghanistan.

 

[Waylander]

Ah you lucky one.

Especially the F-22 would be lovely to see in real.

 

[Ths]

Well I have none of them under my belt - to old I guess: Somewhere in between the Sopwith Camel and the F-22.

Wellcome back Gary. I generally look first at your posts - and conclude by the vituperence if the other are worth reading.

 

[cheetah]

I

think we have a problem with thread destruction any time we even remotely approach the subject of China

:
let me ask u a question.how would u like it when people started saying the same about American tech as u like to annalyze the chinese.

1. I think some have a problem with distinguishing between evaluation of intend and capability. The least doubt of Chinese equipment not being the worlds best is met by an intense flaming of being anti-chinese (well I for one is getting there) if we not wholeheartedly support China talking over other countries.

just as some one is starting these threads to say Americans equipment is better and Chinese is bad i guess other sides didn't share your view.i don't see any thing wrong with having confidence in your own technology.but don't expect others to not to have the same .

2. Interesting threads are being closed because the threads are overflowing with more or less prepostereous claims, which are treated with respect in so far as the dubious claims are countered. I've tried to cut such inane arguments short - with very little success - and gotten a request to try to get my point across in another way. Not entirely fair in my view - on the other hand who cares about a broken nail in the heat of battle.

again what you are saying is you are with us or against us.my way or the highway.

3. I find it serious that the freedom of debate is being seriously curbed by people that don't have the first notion of free debate. Sort of "Muhammad cartoon" responses to anything that can be construed as criticism of Chinese paranoia and dreams. Example: My criticism of the exaggerated claims for the J-10 was flooded with hurt feelings - quite drowning my assessment that the plane is probably quite good at what it is designed to do: Shoot down cruise missiles. This contention is supported by the hint involuntarily spilled: The basing of the J-10.

Its so funny in the west how it is OK for the Westerners to talk about Muslims.and call all sorts of names yet even i person who dares to say any thing against Jews is crucified with in minutes double slandered is it.or freedom of speech only exist as long as Jews are of the table.but jewish media can go nuts in the name of freedom.nfloorl:
your criticism for j-10.just a question why do u criticize others.Americans didn't get to raptors from the day 1 it took them some time do u agree.yet Chinese are new in this field considering that i say -j 10 is hell of a jump for them.And they should be proud.i mean i look at it this way in USA most people prefer to buy foreign cars yet when you go on line forums Americans are bragging about how superior they are in there technology.nfloorl:
4

. The problem is by no means unique: StrategyPage has had its fair share, though there it has mostly been muslim flamers. It is not a problem of debate with people that don't want debate - that is a lost cause anyhow - but that the rest of us are cut off and curbed: The responses of Waylander, Gf-0012, Grand Danois, Galrahn, swerve and others are simplly drowned and the time they can devote is used refudiating bogus claims instead of correcting misconception made in good faith and enlighten the rest of us.

Yet again you are crying same over and over again Muslims are bad you are good Muslims are flamers yet you are calm.you are good with technology they are bad you can handle any situation as long as every body do as u say .u can say bad about Muslims and they should counter ya without taking offense to it. you have the right to do as u please others should ask permission. if they can or cant.fixing bogus claims u said how is one to achieve that when the other side is totally close minded.what ever fox and CNN said is it.yet Al-jazeera wanted to operate in USA license was denied.Muslims are captured and put in jail without any charges for months some time years.what have the Americans done against that have you shown any concern or every time u see a Muslim u call police as he looked at ya.go look in your own country and do tell us all if that so called freedom of speech is for every body of just 1 segment of the society enjoys that.
i will ask u a question answer that (i no u will not answer it)
if i wanna send more then 1000 dollars out side of USA. iam not allowed.and i get no tax receipt for that money while u can send as much as u like to Israel and its all tax deductible).

5. I don't have a solution, but we need to preserve this breating space for a direct and productive defence debate that is sorely needed as the media are out to sell copies (that's their business) and the majority of the population is more impressed with Dolly Parton's chest size than the range of the F-22. Not knocking Dolly Parton and her outstanding assets; but

.
solution is simple treat every body same.look at every body with the same eye.every body has the right to fair trial.(as long as its a Muslim its behind bars and no need for a trial)Most of the big companies that have taken (senior citizens and other people that are about to retire)to the cleaners are given a slap on the wrist.while a guy driving a cab is put in jail with key thrown at the bottom of the sea.cause he is Muslim.
Any Muslim fighting to defend his or her own country is a terrorist.yet the invading army is there to give them freedomnfloorl: .cause the Americans said so.oh we must not also forget elections in Muslim countries only count if American supported idiot come in power.other wise it wasn't fair so it doesn't count.but you are right Muslims have no right to be angry.they should welcome Americans and take all insults as they come.while the Americans take out there countries resources in the name of freedom:nutkick.
wake and and smell the coffee just cause most in USA cant see it cause of media Base doesn't mean the rest of the world is blind.and Muslims will keep putting up with this double slandered. give me a break.

 

[Waylander]

You are not aware of the fact that he (And others here) is not an american aren't you?

Despite this I think most people here have no problems with critics of systems/tactics/capabilities of any country as long as it is done in a reasonable and logic way backed up by facts and experience.

I am totally against any kind of baseless flaming against someones country totally unimportant if it is against China, the US, France or Ivory Coast.

But I agree that it looks like that special themes here tend to turn into a flame war faster than others.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

There are new threads running right now if you care to look were preople are critisising thier OWN systems. ie the Australian sea sprite problems. The rest of us can critisize ourselvs or each other, but not chinise under any sercemstances? why?

 

[Schumacher]

News travels fast! I certainly did. I was lucky enough to see a large flight (7) of F-22's, (2) KC-10's and (2) C-17's roll into Honolulu.

Plus there was a B-52 rotating out, and which I'm guessing was going for a run over to afghanistan.

Those F-22 are the ones on their way to Japan ? Just read their deployment there has been postponed for the 2nd time, no reasons given though.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Those F-22 are the ones on their way to Japan ? Just read their deployment there has been postponed for the 2nd time, no reasons given though.

I haven't heard of delays. In fact of the ones I saw, a flight was on its way out.

 

[Schumacher]

I haven't heard of delays. In fact of the ones I saw, a flight was on its way out.

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20070212p2a00m0na017000c.html

 

[Rich]

Actually I just dont know how to discuss terrorism without some peoples feelings getting hurt thinking Muslims are getting flamed. If you remember many months ago I pointed out how terrorist elements in Afghanistan were getting , shelter, rest, and support in the tribal areas of Pakistan and I thought some people here, including Mods, were going to bust a gut. I was accused of being a "flamer" and what not.

Recent events have proved I was right, tho many of you no doubt already knew that. I was also right when I posted Iran was supporting factions of the Iraq insurgency.

So what? When supported by facts when we post in this forum is there some Politically correct litmus test we must follow? Dont get me wrong, this forum is better then most.

I know I dont need to explain this to anyone but Waylander but I make reference to culture and history because such understanding is critical to understanding and anticipating strategy. Thats why I would talk about the capacity for patience in Asian culture, or the revered place the Army has in Turkish society, the ability of Americans to tolerate waste in military spending...ect But most of you knew that right?

I'm going to put this waylander guy on ignore because I'm sick of him following me around, butting in on threads hes not involved in, and insulting me. Apparently he thinks hes a Mod. and frankly I have no stomach for pro-longed flames or little politically correct games.

I value the forum to much. And its easy to avoid flames. All you have to do is not open the thread again. Anyway, have a good day everyone.

 

[radiosilence]

^Some of your comments about Muslims and the Muslim World comes off as being Bigoted.