NZDF LTDP 2006 update

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icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
All three services have also begun rebuilding manpower under the Defence Sustainability Initiative announced last year. The aim is to have another 1500-2000 personnel within 10 years – a big increase on the 13,000 now in defence.
And they say a 2000 personel increase for us is hard!

I didn't realise that our kiwi bros were this bad, maybe the 2-3 kiwis in the platoons marching into kapooka every week should head home to help.
Whats got me is that the hercules have had to abort missions reguarly, really?
This kinda blows the NZDF capability out the window, how can they support an emergency in the pacific if they can't fly supplies in, or get someone to watch their ships every time it leaves port.
I've seen their ad on the NZDF website for foreign personel from Commonwealth countries to join the kiwi force, would an addition to this recruitment help? might be a few disgruntled POMs that might want to leave the home forces for new beginning and less pressure...why the hell didn't we think of this?!?!?
Add to speeding up their citizenship
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Can't say I'm convinced they offer the sorts of payload & range combination Army should be looking for but I guess at this stage it's early days in what is essentially described as a 'proof of concept' for NZ Army. ...Comments?
The UAVs look good for providing some tactical ISR... Though I agree, I think at present at least, NZ would get a greater benefit from large, high persistance UAVs providing a maritime patrol or something similar.

On the other hand, if the C4ISR improvements go well in the NZ army then the mini-UAVs could be a very good addition for reconnaissance.

Speaking of ISR, in the LTDP there was mention of a possible need for short to medium range MPA to assist or augment the P-3K Orions. This caused me to wonder what methods NZ uses to monitor and patrol the EEZ. As of right now, from what I understand the NZDF assets for maritime patrol consist of the Anzac frigates, 4 Moa patrol boats and the 6 P-3K Orions. Are there other assets that get used to patrol the EEZ or monitor ship traffic? NZ seems to have a large area to be patrolled by so few assets.

-Cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
There is a big hole in New Zealand's EEZ patrols, its the main reason why New Zealand chose to acquire the 7 Project Protector vessels instead of buying a third frigate. All seven should be launched by the end of 2007.

While it is still unclear, New Zealand may lease a better twin engine trainer aircraft suitable for EEZ patrols and VIP transport duties, such as the Q200 aircraft. But we'll have to wait and see what transpires, it seems the best route for improvement is to have upgrade capabilites in replacement equipment, including aircraft.

Much like Ireland, New Zealand looks for multi-role capabilites with new acquisitions. While Ireland may have 8 OPVs, Ireland only has one EEZ patrol plane, and it doubles as its only transport plane. Nations of only 4 million people have to stretch its equipment to do multiple roles.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
The biggest problem with recruitment is the low pay, $25,000 NZ for a private, I am Kiwi/Aussie now, what would I choose the relatively well funded good paying ADF or the NZDF, As nice as it would be to serve I would choose the British Army first who also have the commenwealth recruitment scheme ;), although the education requirements for NZDF Pilots is lower than the ADF....
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Wow, factor in exchange rates and service allowance and an Aussie private's pay is double that!
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
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Hi everyone, in the interests of not starting yet another NZDF thread Dr Wayne Mapp has been appointed opposition spokemans for Defence and made these comments at a Foreign Affairs Seminar...


http://www.waynemapp.co.nz/Speeches%20and%20Articles/Foreign%20Affairs%20seminar.htm


"November 2006
Presentation to the Foreign Affairs Seminar
This speech was presented at the Foreign Affairs Seminar on 30 November 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The end of the Cold War was supposed to have heralded an era of peace. Instead, there has been more conflict and instability than anyone could possibly have imagined. Policy makers have had to scrabble to change their thinking.

In New Zealand the initial response in the early 1990s was simply to cut defence spending. But this occurred without any fresh thinking. The first serious effort was the Select Committee Report, Defence Beyond 2000. This was started in 1997 and was produced in 1999. The Select Committee heard from numerous people, the defence forces, and other countries’ representatives. Professor White provided great insight during the Committee’s trip to Australia.

At the time the report’s recommendations were controversial; today they seem conventional. The essence was that the defence forces faced a new, more complex environment, and that the old answers would no longer be sufficient. The defence forces needed to be more agile and more focussed. This was summarised as “depth, not breadth”.

The current defence force came out of that report. It is now time to ask, how much of the thinking was right?

To answer that question you have to know the nature of the security environment. Are defence forces merely an insurance policy, or do they have a more immediate application?

Insurance to me spells preparation for disaster. You hope you never need it, but it would be imprudent to take the risk. In defence terms, the disaster is the invasion of your country, or at least a serious threat to your country. This can be seen as the deterrence value of defence.

However, New Zealand has not faced invasion for 60 years. But our defence force has been exceptionally busy over the last 10 years. These deployments have not been based on the principle of deterrence, so what has been their purpose?

I would suggest that our defence forces have been primarily concerned with securing stability, especially in our region. Only Australia and New Zealand can take the lead in our region. Only these two countries have deployable and credible defence forces. If we don’t act in our region, then no one else will.

So what does securing stability in our region require? As a general rule, it does not require having high intensity combat capabilities. However, it certainly does mean a credible level of military force is required. Soldiers are not just police officers in green, they have to be prepared for combat. But air strikes, sinking submarines, fighting off opposing air forces, is not part of the scenario in our immediate region. Lighter forces are more relevant. The possible exception was East Timor. A visible high level force was intended to have a deterrent effect against any renegade Indonesian forces. However, it should be recalled that the deployment to East Timor did require the co-operation of Indonesia. Would the intervention have occurred without their consent?

Outside our region, we have been heavily engaged with a wide variety of forces. In contrast to our own region, we are only required and expected to provide a specialist contribution, within a much larger coalition force. This has become known as niche capabilities. For New Zealand these have been substantially frigates, Orions, engineers, and special forces. All these have serious combat capabilities, and they have been actually used. We have also provided a particularly Kiwi approach to peacemaking, as is evident with the PRT in Afghanistan. The quality of our people is held in high regard by friends and allies.

What is the lesson we can draw from this in terms of the capabilities and composition of our armed forces? They appear to be:

· First, these operations are manpower intensive. We typically have over 500 people deployed at any point in time, sometimes as many as 1,000. That stretches a force that has only 7,000 full time personnel. Increasingly, reserve forces are being called upon. But the serious question has to be asked, do we need significantly more people?

· Second, some of the critical equipment is being heavily used. For example, our two frigates are tasked at a much higher rate than originally envisaged.

· Third, we need a better understanding of the usual range of military capabilities. For several years we have parked up the 20 Aermacchi air training aircraft. How do you effectively train naval, army and air force personnel when we have completely denied ourselves the use of relatively cheap jet air training aircraft?

It is now nearly a decade since the last serious review of defence, Defence Beyond 2000. New Zealand’s current defence force is the outcome of that review. But the world is much less stable than anyone envisaged in 1997. It is time to think afresh about the challenges that lie ahead.

A small defence force like New Zealand’s can never have everything, so our choices have to be as flexible and realistic as possible. In politics we are in the business of making choices. After three terms in opposition we can be expected to come up with fresh solutions. That is our task over the next two years."
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Well it looks like National has finally pulled its finger out and decided to create Foreign and Defense policies, interesting times ahead if NZ had some actual lobbying for a stronger better equipped force it will be interesting to see what would arise espescially if it was stronger than the voice of the greens and their mates.
Labour's stance and care of defence is evident by its Minister of Defence, rather than having a specialised one is role this is Phil Goffs portfolio:

Defence - Minister
Disarmament and Arms Control - Minister
Finance - Associate Minister
Pacific Island Affairs - Minister
Trade - Minister
Trade Negotiations - Minister

Now the top two make sense, if you took the average time Mp's actually work, then divide it by 6 thats what the current Gov spend on defence, interesting.
 

KH-12

Member
Sounds like under a National government that the Aermacchi may be brought back into operation, hopefully they are'nt disposed of before then. :)
 

stryker NZ

New Member
how can you be the minister of defence and the minister of Disarmament and Arms Control dont they kind of contradict each other
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I have said on other threads I would prefer the T-50 Golden Eagle for the training/light fighter role if the Aermacchis were sold, since they are the best on the market currently. They are supersonic aircraft which have maritime and close air support capabilities, considerably cheaper to buy and operate than a F-16. By buying only one type of aircraft for the air combat force, there will be savings not having to buy two types of aircraft.

If the Aermacchis have not been sold, I would hang onto them instead, although the aircraft isn't as great. While the Aermacchis and possibly the Golden Eagle aren't great interceptors, they should provide a welcomed maritime strike and close air support capabilities. Eventually new aircraft will be bought when the Aermacchis wear out. If New Zealand was able to maintain fighter pilot training, this would close the gap of starting a new air combat force from scratch.

Instead of a 24-30 trainers and fighters, the RNZAF could make due with 12-15 aircraft, a considerable difference in numbers and costs.
 

KH-12

Member
Although it would be nice to have something like the T-50, the reality is that the money won't be availble in the near future, the Aermachi are available now and would give at least a limited strike capability back to the NZDF, they don't look like they will be sold anytime soon so they may as well be put to good use
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
Oki Doki, what can we work out from the new National defence spokesman?

Soldiers are not just police officers in green, they have to be prepared for combat. But air strikes, sinking submarines, fighting off opposing air forces, is not part of the scenario in our immediate region. Lighter forces are more relevant. The possible exception was East Timor. A visible high level force was intended to have a deterrent effect against any renegade Indonesian forces. However, it should be recalled that the deployment to East Timor did require the co-operation of Indonesia. Would the intervention have occurred without their consent?
I think we can expect the development of a limited higher end army capability for places like Timor or possibly, at a smaller scale, Bosnia.
No serious ASW or air combat capability required, as NZ forces will operate on a large scale only in the South Pacific, where such threats dont really exist.
Dont expect real projection capabilities.


Outside our region, we have been heavily engaged with a wide variety of forces. In contrast to our own region, we are only required and expected to provide a specialist contribution, within a much larger coalition force. This has become known as niche capabilities. For New Zealand these have been substantially frigates, Orions, engineers, and special forces. All these have serious combat capabilities, and they have been actually used. We have also provided a particularly Kiwi approach to peacemaking, as is evident with the PRT in Afghanistan. The quality of our people is held in high regard by friends and allies.
More of the same old, same old, but probably somewhat better resourced.


· First, these operations are manpower intensive. We typically have over 500 people deployed at any point in time, sometimes as many as 1,000. That stretches a force that has only 7,000 full time personnel. Increasingly, reserve forces are being called upon. But the serious question has to be asked, do we need significantly more people?

· Second, some of the critical equipment is being heavily used. For example, our two frigates are tasked at a much higher rate than originally envisaged.

· Third, we need a better understanding of the usual range of military capabilities. For several years we have parked up the 20 Aermacchi air training aircraft. How do you effectively train naval, army and air force personnel when we have completely denied ourselves the use of relatively cheap jet air training aircraft?
More personell {perhaps another infantry battalion?}

As mentioned above better resources for those units most heavily used

Jet trainers to be used only as a training aid.


A small defence force like New Zealand’s can never have everything, so our choices have to be as flexible and realistic as possible. In politics we are in the business of making choices. After three terms in opposition we can be expected to come up with fresh solutions. That is our task over the next two years.
Translation: All defence promises are subject to other priorities; such promises that are made are subject to reveiw and policy will be vague to ensure that implied promises need not be kept.

In short, a better resourced version of what NZ already has, with the usual caveat that "politics is the art of the possible".

Of course its too early to say exactly what will be developed policywise, but on past performance I am not overly hopefull of any real development of existing or new capabilities.
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
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I agree with Stuart, the way I read the speech, National has no substantial problems with the way Labour is heading (IMO Labour has been dragged from ideology towards a more realist approach by world events, but can’t bring itself to go to much further), so the ten year plan to build up numbers will remain, maybe even enhanced.

Two areas of divergence, the trainers would be used to train the navy and army, while keeping the air force hand in fast aircraft. But no Strike. Seems to be positioning for the potential of adding more naval combat, if the two frigates have been tasked more than originally thought, NZ might need another.

The guys who will have been quietly asked to look into a worst case Fiji scenario, will no doubt be highlighting three main areas, transport, Intelligence/Surveillance/Reconnaissance (ISR) and lack of personnel.

Good start.

I have had a bit to do with Wayne Mapp, when he was defence spokesman 6 years ago, he knows his stuff.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I don't think we should get too excited with regard to Wayne Mapp's speech. It must be seen for what it is - a broad statement by a newly appointed opposition spokesman. There's no commitment to anything other than 'light forces' (which I read to suggest we shouldn't expect a major change in direction).

Nor can they commit to anything at this stage. Remember pre-election talk is cheap, especially for an opposition party - and does not guarantee anything! Firstly they have to get in power, and 'open the books'. Then they obviously intend to initiate a white paper. That will be followed by a year or two of debate etc. In fact they are pretty much suggesting 'business as usual'.

He's right about manpower, but even Labour admits that!

They mention revisiting the Aermacchi fleet - but he is not actually saying they WILL re-activate them. They are simply going to review their potential use. They do however make a damned good point about their value in Air, Army & Navy training. They could do a few other 'domestic' tasks such as stopping fleeing fishing boats and (very) last ditch air-defence, but I'm not sure that these are realistically needed.

I still think our focus s/be 'regional' which means jet trainers and deployable multi-role combat aircraft (ie staged up into S. E. Asia etc) but we are unlikely to ever see that again in NZ - Mapp's speech pretty much guarantees that! This being the case the Macchis would only ever be for training - which I'm okay with, but that then makes me wonder if that alone would be enough for them to decide to retain them. I don't think we should simply become a combat pilot training adjunct for other forces, if we did the Govt would cash the profit anyway!!!

Mapp refers to over worked assets such as frigates - but makes no suggestion as to how to resolve that. We've all seen politicians try to 'do less' or 'use assets more effectively' - it doesn't for a moment suggest we go buying more!

In fact while Wayne Mapp's speech doesn't actually commit to anything - it basically confirms that they will not deviate significantly from Labour's path. Let's just hope they are prepared to add a little more teeth to the NZDF and give it the resources to provide a real regional contribution!
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
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I don't think we should get too excited with regard to Wayne Mapp's speech. It must be seen for what it is - a broad statement by a newly appointed opposition spokesman. There's no commitment to anything other than 'light forces' (which I read to suggest we shouldn't expect a major change in direction).

Nor can they commit to anything at this stage. Remember pre-election talk is cheap, especially for an opposition party - and does not guarantee anything! Firstly they have to get in power, and 'open the books'. Then they obviously intend to initiate a white paper. That will be followed by a year or two of debate etc. In fact they are pretty much suggesting 'business as usual'.

He's right about manpower, but even Labour admits that!

They mention revisiting the Aermacchi fleet - but he is not actually saying they WILL re-activate them. They are simply going to review their potential use. They do however make a damned good point about their value in Air, Army & Navy training. They could do a few other 'domestic' tasks such as stopping fleeing fishing boats and (very) last ditch air-defence, but I'm not sure that these are realistically needed.

I still think our focus s/be 'regional' which means jet trainers and deployable multi-role combat aircraft (ie staged up into S. E. Asia etc) but we are unlikely to ever see that again in NZ - Mapp's speech pretty much guarantees that! This being the case the Macchis would only ever be for training - which I'm okay with, but that then makes me wonder if that alone would be enough for them to decide to retain them. I don't think we should simply become a combat pilot training adjunct for other forces, if we did the Govt would cash the profit anyway!!!

Mapp refers to over worked assets such as frigates - but makes no suggestion as to how to resolve that. We've all seen politicians try to 'do less' or 'use assets more effectively' - it doesn't for a moment suggest we go buying more!

In fact while Wayne Mapp's speech doesn't actually commit to anything - it basically confirms that they will not deviate significantly from Labour's path. Let's just hope they are prepared to add a little more teeth to the NZDF and give it the resources to provide a real regional contribution!
I don't disagree, but lets not forget that all policy starts with positioning. Mapp is an ex Territorial officer serving with Intelligence (please no jokes on military Intel :) ) and Infantry.

To be honest I think that that from 2000 both Labour and National have actually moved closer together on defence, there are still differences, but they also have a lot in common.

Air strike is a dead duck IMHO, but the trainers are needed if only to train the army and navy how to operate with coalition assets. That is very important wether the operation be UN or, as is the case in A-stan, Nato.

A third naval combatant is not out of the question, as they are hard working, have been deployed and do serve the national interest. As an EXAMPLE, a Danish Absalon, bought configured for patrol, but that goes through an ANZAC style upgrade to keep systems commonality MAY be a solution, or something similar. Without a study on costs and practicality it is at the moment a talking point only.

Of more concern is the flexibility of the army to contribute to regional missions, sustain those missions and have the ability to deploy and be sustained. The MRV and C-130 upgrade is a good start but given the possible tempo and forces needed are 5 C-130s and 1 8,000 ton MRV sufficient for a country where deployments will always be at least 1,000nm for NZ?

A few thoughts anyway!
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I don't think we should get too excited with regard to Wayne Mapp's speech. It must be seen for what it is - a broad statement by a newly appointed opposition spokesman. There's no commitment to anything other than 'light forces' (which I read to suggest we shouldn't expect a major change in direction).

Nor can they commit to anything at this stage. Remember pre-election talk is cheap, especially for an opposition party - and does not guarantee anything! Firstly they have to get in power, and 'open the books'. Then they obviously intend to initiate a white paper. That will be followed by a year or two of debate etc. In fact they are pretty much suggesting 'business as usual'.

He's right about manpower, but even Labour admits that!
Agreed

They mention revisiting the Aermacchi fleet - but he is not actually saying they WILL re-activate them. They are simply going to review their potential use. They do however make a damned good point about their value in Air, Army & Navy training. They could do a few other 'domestic' tasks such as stopping fleeing fishing boats and (very) last ditch air-defence, but I'm not sure that these are realistically needed.

I still think our focus s/be 'regional' which means jet trainers and deployable multi-role combat aircraft (ie staged up into S. E. Asia etc) but we are unlikely to ever see that again in NZ - Mapp's speech pretty much guarantees that! This being the case the Macchis would only ever be for training - which I'm okay with, but that then makes me wonder if that alone would be enough for them to decide to retain them. I don't think we should simply become a combat pilot training adjunct for other forces, if we did the Govt would cash the profit anyway!!!
I think its a excellent point that they've made. With the introduction of the OPV's any need for a strike force can be ruled out. The only exception would be if an IPV tried to stop a trawler in the 12 mile limit - the 12.7mm would just bounce of the hull (especially if its Russian - those things are built like armoured plated bricks). The last ditch air defence or general air defence is needed. If you remember APEC in 1999, in Auckland the army deployed its Mistral system and the airforce had the Skyhawks on notice. Given the events of 9/11 I suggest a limited air combat force is needed for such functions.

I agree that we shouldn't become a combat training force for other countries. I would prefer to see the MB339 as a steping stone to a more capable aircraft as NZ rebuilds a basic air combat capability. I don't think we'd ever need more than the current numbers of MB339.

Mapp refers to over worked assets such as frigates - but makes no suggestion as to how to resolve that. We've all seen politicians try to 'do less' or 'use assets more effectively' - it doesn't for a moment suggest we go buying more!
Why buy frigates. If you look at corvettes like the German K-130 or Polish MEKO 100 they're just as capable of doing the current ANZAC frigates job (And I'm not suggesting we sell them - they should provide the long range sensors etc needed for combined ops by NZ forces). The only issue is the range and sea keeping capability.
In fact while Wayne Mapp's speech doesn't actually commit to anything - it basically confirms that they will not deviate significantly from Labour's path. Let's just hope they are prepared to add a little more teeth to the NZDF and give it the resources to provide a real regional contribution!
If National wants to have an say in Defence long term it will need to front up with something significant, if it gets into power next term.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Yep WhisyJack & LucasNZ - we all think alike! My problem is I'm soooo damned pessimistic about Defence - hard not to be in NZ eh!?!

Let's hope if & when Wayne Mapp gets to be Defence Minister that he is able to convince his party & public alike that he's the man! Agree we need to forget about being a 'big' player with air combat off the radar (damn it!).

I do disagree though with his statement that amongst other things 'sinking submarines' is (quote) "not part of the scenario in our immediate region" (unquote). Our surface fleet must retain that capability as there's so few frigates in this region to provide us or anyone else ASW cover. So should the P3-K. If he suggests either of these are not necessary then he's actually suggesting a more significant downgrading of our combat capability then even Labour has attempted. I think he needs to clarify that point!

I also hope when he makes the same reference to air-strikes that he's not ruling out the possibility of gaining an ARH for Army CAS. Best we can hope for here is likely to be an armed version of the proposed LUH which I'd like to think is actually quite possible (req's additional airframes tho'). Ok so it would be a limited CAS capability but would be relevant to the types of operations we are likely to be involved in - esp. with his reference to 'lighter forces' - as these are designed for 'lighter operations'.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I have said before New Zealand can spend more on defence, easily up to another .5 pecent GDP. New Zealand should concentrate this extra expenditure on equipment and upgrades, not on personnel (other than possibly another light regiment).

It bothers me that the ASW torpedoes aren't being upgraded before their shelf life has expired. It bothers me that the Anzac class frigates don't have harpoon SSM missiles. As has already been noted, the new helicopters can have short range strike missiles. The P-3 Orions can have harpoons. The new OPVs can have CIWS.

While New Zealand may not be able to afford a larger force, it can afford to fully arm their equipment.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Some updates for those interested, not worth starting new thread so I thought I would use this one as it is related.

New Secretary of Defence for New Zealand John Mckinnon

http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/feature-stories/20061129-jmatdmh.htm

Those who find the name familar are right he is the brother of Commenwealth Secretary General of the Commonwealth and former Foreign Affairs Minister of NZ under the Previous Government.

Also a speech from Phil Goff at the Graduation of the Army Staff Command College.

http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=28000

Look closely and youll find evidence of the left leaning of the Hon. Mr Goff I mean who does that?

Hope you find these informative.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Air strike is a dead duck IMHO, but the trainers are needed if only to train the army and navy how to operate with coalition assets. That is very important wether the operation be UN or, as is the case in A-stan, Nato.
Have there been any new developments in NZ during the last few months re the MB339s? I gather that they are still unsold and it seems a terrible waste of an asset to just have them sitting there. Even if only 10 -12 were put back into service they would be invaluable in providing realistic training for the army and navy, as well as providing an emergency light strike and limited air defence capability.

I heard recently that civilian 'warbird' operators have provided support during exercises but I can't find the source. Is anyone able to confirm whether this did or did not happen? If the NZDF is going to go down this track for air support it should perhaps consider a commercial contract for a private operator to use some of the MB339s.

Cheers
 
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