German Navy: Third Combat Support Ship instead of F125-Frigates?

[Falstaff]

I found this article titled "Drittes Dickschiff" in last week's "Der Spiegel" (Nr. 2/8.1.07, p. 18)) and I was confident enough to unofficially translate it all by myself (so please don't look to close at it ):

The german navy is to get a third combat support ship, („Einsatzgruppenversorger“) for missions far from home as soon as possible. Two of these 174 metre and 150 million (€) ships, the “Berlin” and “Frankfurt am Main”, did well during tsunami-relief missions in Indonesia and the Unifil-mission off the coast of Lebanon.. The purchase of another such ship was planned for as late as 2014 due to lack of funding. But now- if possible- the contract for the third ship is to be signed in the first half of 2007 already: Shortly before their winter break budget experts from the coalition and opposition signalled they would agree to a purchase request from the ministry of defense, which recently dropped plans to order 4 new frigates for 2,3 billion euros before the end of 2006. After struggling with the supplier concerning price and abilities this project is frozen at the moment. And there is yet another contract waiting for german shipbuilders: In order to be able to land troups at far away coasts the Bundeswehr wants to order big LPDs such as the dutch “Rotterdam” which can carry about 600 infantrymen, 170 vehicles and several helicopters. Yet, as a financial contribution the german navy would have to burry their plans to purchase more new frigates during the next decade.

- ends -

Some remarks:
- some very basic information about the combat support ships of the berlin-class http://www.marine.de/01DB070000000001/CurrentBaseLink/W269AG8H141INFOEN
- the four frigates mentioned in the article must be the planned innovative F125 stabilisation frigates, I'm not sure what the "more new frigates" refer to

I never read something about a struggle about the F125-project and a purchase of LPDs for the german navy elsewhere. Perhaps somebody knows about these things?

 

[Waylander]

You forgot the ETRus program which has been downed not far away?
And another LPD programm before this?
This is going to end in the same way.

I don't see us getting a LPD in the near future. Not with our budget problems.
The fast realization of the third EGV is IMHO the only future ship we are getting with very limited transport capabilities.

BTW.
Not getting new FFGs?
Our F122 need an urgent replacement.

And how do we want to get the light infantry needed for this?
Our tiny infantry forces already struggle at performing oversea missions, being ready for national fast deployment reserve, EU battlegroups, NATO tasks and day to day training to remain operational.

Always giving the Bundeswehr new tasks without increasing the budget is going to end in a catastrophe sooner or later.

Two possibilities. End some of these wannabe missions (lebanese coast, african adventures) or increase the budget and raise some more boots on the ground.
Just look at the Brits. A much better ratio of combat troops to support/staff units.

 

[Galrahn]

I have had an opportunity to see the Berlin up close, last year when it made a tour with the Rheinland-Pfalz and the Hamburg to South Africa for exercises. I ended up meeting a few members of her crew in a bar outside Rota.

I never consider it to be a bad thing to buy a modern logistics ship. In my opinion, adding another Berlin to the German Navy increases the capability of any 4 existing German warships by a margin greater than adding an additional F-125.

I don't know what is driving the decision, but I don't see it as a bad decision.

German interests near to home are more secure now than at anytime since WWII. German interests elsewhere are only secured so long as the German Navy can sustain operations there. While often overlooked by those who count missiles and bullets, I think a new Berlin will add substantially more presence to the German Navy than a new F-125 would.

As replenishment vessels go I walked away thinking the Berlin was one of the best class of logistics ships in the world, much nicer and easier to work in than the larger American replenishment ships I have seen anyway. Personally, I don't see a 3rd Berlin as a bad thing, it gives more capability to the Deutsche Marine to sustain operations autonomously, specifically like the current operations off Lebanon.

 

[Tasman]

I have had an opportunity to see the Berlin up close, last year when it made a tour with the Rheinland-Pfalz and the Hamburg to South Africa for exercises. I ended up meeting a few members of her crew in a bar outside Rota.

I never consider it to be a bad thing to buy a modern logistics ship. In my opinion, adding another Berlin to the German Navy increases the capability of any 4 existing German warships by a margin greater than adding an additional F-125.

I don't know what is driving the decision, but I don't see it as a bad decision.

German interests near to home are more secure now than at anytime since WWII. German interests elsewhere are only secured so long as the German Navy can sustain operations there. While often overlooked by those who count missiles and bullets, I think a new Berlin will add substantially more presence to the German Navy than a new F-125 would.

As replenishment vessels go I walked away thinking the Berlin was one of the best class of logistics ships in the world, much nicer and easier to work in than the larger American replenishment ships I have seen anyway. Personally, I don't see a 3rd Berlin as a bad thing, it gives more capability to the Deutsche Marine to sustain operations autonomously, specifically like the current operations off Lebanon.

I agree with your comments Galrahn. I think the German navy will probably gain more from a ship of this type than from an additional F125. At the same time I think it would be a mistake if the whole of the planned F125 program is dropped or postponed for too long.

It certainly looks to be a good design for a middle sized navy. I wonder if Germany is interested in looking at overseas markets? Will the RAN , for example, look at this class as a replacement for Success? Australia has similar needs to sustain operations from a limited number of surface combatants. The size and capability of this class looks to be very suitable for what is required.

Cheers

 

[Falstaff]

Always giving the Bundeswehr new tasks without increasing the budget is going to end in a catastrophe sooner or later.

Two possibilities. End some of these wannabe missions (lebanese coast, african adventures) or increase the budget and raise some more boots on the ground.

I totally agree with you. It was one of the reasons for me not to become a professional soldier after my service although I was tempted...
Personally I would like to see the german navy to remain a 15-16 major surface combatant navy in the future and be able to deploy and support troups overseas, but I guess it's wishful thinking. As long as there is no deeper understanding with our politicians for the Bundeswehr's needs.
Yes, I think another "Berlin"-class vessel would be a good idea and yes, I think the F125 is an innovative and very suitable concept for peace-keeping/asymmetrical warfare/disaster relief etc. IMO both are needed desperately these times. The F122's role sure could partially be taken over by the "Braunschweig"-corvettes.
So a surface fleet consisting of 3 F124 (AAW and command), 4 F123 (ASW), 6-8 (being optimistic) F125 (rest ) and that five K130 with the respective fleet support ships (third "Berlin"-class) would be a good mix to fulfill present and future missions- even if we leave that age of asymmetrical warfare and reenter the good old fleet vs. fleet days
I would rather not buy a LPD at this time... Same reasons as Waylander said + whole new type of ship and equipment needs new doctrine and training and so on.

Thanks, Galrahn, for your personal report!

 

[contedicavour]

I read on "naval forces" that 4 F125 are supposed to replace the 8 Bremen F122. That would leave 3 AAW FFGs and 8 ASUW/ASW FFGs. Once you compare with Netherlands' 6 FFGs or even Italy's 4 DDG and 8 FFG, it's a pretty good force. However the 4 F125 are clearly needed and before 2020.

cheers

 

[Waylander]

I totally agree that the Berlin class is a great benefit to the capabilities of the Bundesmarine.
And the question was not to buy this third Berlin class and no F125 but to buy a LPD like the Rotterdam class and no or less F125. The procurement of the third Berlin class does not affects future FFG procurements.
Only the fast procurement of the third Berlin is interesting the procurement itself was planned but for later.

So the question is is a LPD for our navy so much needed that we get it but no new FFGs in the near future?
And my opinion is no.
There are so many problems within the Bundeswehr that before we try to build up an amphibious capability out of nothing we should solve these.

Many programs are very slow and have delays (NH90/Tiger introduction, future infantry package, digital network capabilities, airlift capabilities... the list is long). And all those programs are much more needed for our oversea deployments than a LPD.

I agree that a force of 3x F124, 4x F125, 4x F123, 5x K130 + support ships and mine hunters are enough for germany.

At least for nearly every possible evacuation our airborn and airmobile infantry is better suited.
We are far away of every hotspot in the world and a LPD would have to have a long way to go for every possible crisis reaction.

 

[submerged]

I read on "naval forces" that 4 F125 are supposed to replace the 8 Bremen F122. That would leave 3 AAW FFGs and 8 ASUW/ASW FFGs. Once you compare with Netherlands' 6 FFGs or even Italy's 4 DDG and 8 FFG, it's a pretty good force. However the 4 F125 are clearly needed and before 2020.

cheers

I guess comparing Germany with the Netherlands is like comparing apples and peers, Germany is way bigger then the Netherlands in size and economy, it's good to see that countries surrounding the Netherlands like Germany and Danmark still recognize the importance of a good navy tho whilst the dutch are reducing their fleet to that of a third world country :s

I agree with waylander very much on the LPD, and i have strong issues with the LPD's in dutch service, whilst being wonderfull ships we can't even fully protect them when the shit hits the fan..building up such a capability without the escorts for it seems a bit odd towards me

 

[Waylander]

And you have to see that the Netherlands still have oversea territories (Just look at the dispute with Venezuela) and a much bigger naval history than Germany.
We don't have those oversea territories and no oversea treaties like the Commonwealth for example.
So our need for a oversea expeditionary capability is even smaller than that of the Netherlands.

BTW. Our sub crews say that the F123 is way too loud to be a good ASW ship nowadays so we just need the F125 as replacement.

 

[Falstaff]

BTW. Our sub crews say that the F123 is way too loud to be a good ASW ship nowadays so we just need the F125 as replacement.

Besides from the fact that this is bad news (and I didn't know it) my understanding is that the F125 and the K130 (in the surface warfare role) together will replace the F122 (and add some capabilities to the fleet as well).

The K130 as a strong anti ship and land attack capable combatant, the F125 as multi role vessel with emphasis on stabilisation/asymmetrical warfare missions.

As far as I know, the F123 will remain the only dedicated ASW ship in the fleet for some years (decades) to come.

Talking about F122s: As a frequent visitor to Den Helder and that fancy navy museum I'm very sad about the Dutch navy selling off all those Karel Dormans... As far as I've heard they (along with their sisters F122) are considered as versatile and successful designs, very good seakeeping and good combat capabilities.

In general I'm a littlebit sceptic about all that concentration on asymmetrical scenarios which in my understanding the Dutch navy is doing right now?

 

[contedicavour]

Besides from the fact that this is bad news (and I didn't know it) my understanding is that the F125 and the K130 (in the surface warfare role) together will replace the F122 (and add some capabilities to the fleet as well).

The K130 as a strong anti ship and land attack capable combatant, the F125 as multi role vessel with emphasis on stabilisation/asymmetrical warfare missions.

As far as I know, the F123 will remain the only dedicated ASW ship in the fleet for some years (decades) to come.

Talking about F122s: As a frequent visitor to Den Helder and that fancy navy museum I'm very sad about the Dutch navy selling off all those Karel Dormans... As far as I've heard they (along with their sisters F122) are considered as versatile and successful designs, very good seakeeping and good combat capabilities.

In general I'm a littlebit sceptic about all that concentration on asymmetrical scenarios which in my understanding the Dutch navy is doing right now?

A couple of comments :

> my understanding is that the K130 replace up to 40 FAC(M)s such as Tiger, Albatros, etc and not the F122 frigates.
> to the best of my knowledge the Dutch equivalents to F122 are the Kortenaers not the Doormans. The Doormans were built in the early '90s, while the Kortenaers belong to the '80s as the F122.

I am aligned on the sufficiency of the 4 F123 for ASW tasks. K130 and F125 should focus on ASUW/land attack with good AAW.

I also agree the Dutch navy is doing bizarre things lately. Its 4 De Zeven Provincen are wonderful AAW ships with ATBM capability and now even Tomahawks. Man, almost cruisers in their capability. But around those 4 wonders there's a desert : the 4 Walrus SSKs are ageing fast, the 2 remaining Doormans are unmodernized, 4 corvettes will be good for the Caribbean patrols but not much more. The 2 LPDs are good but I honestly prefer the '80s version of the Dutch navy.

cheers

 

[Falstaff]

A couple of comments :

> my understanding is that the K130 replace up to 40 FAC(M)s such as Tiger, Albatros, etc and not the F122 frigates.

Well, you can see it this or that way- the F125 is officially designated as stabilisation frigate and sure has multi role capabilities but there won't be enough F125-frigates to replace all 8 of them. So partially their role in ASuW will be taken over by the K130, which is far bigger, more capable and ocean going.
The FACs we have were built for battle in the Eastern Sea, we actually don't need so much of them right now in this role and they are not suitable for harsh sea states (e.g. cracks in the hull).
The K130's capabilities are somewhat overlapping the 143(A) FAC and the F122 + land attack capability + (in the future) UAVs

> to the best of my knowledge the Dutch equivalents to F122 are the Kortenaers not the Doormans. The Doormans were built in the early '90s, while the Kortenaers belong to the '80s as the F122.

Yes, certainly. My fault. Sorry, I'm learning for a university test and I'm mixing things up

 

[Falstaff]

So partially their role in ASuW will be taken over by the K130, which is far bigger, more capable and ocean going.

... than the FACs of course, not the F122

 

[Waylander]

The whole concept of the F125 as a stabilization assymetrical warfare ship is much too specialised and IMHO not very good.
One modern 127mm naval gun together with for example RBS 15 with its land attack capability should bring enough metal into the air to support any small speedboat operation this frigate is designed to support.
Using a navalized 155mm PzH2000 system and a navalised MLRS system is much too much emphazisis on this dubious land attack role.
I mean for what?
For the couple of guys we can land with our EGVs and some frigates?
We don't need to be able to let a steel rain come down onto a beach to clear it for a marine brigade.
Because with a max. range of 40km the 155mm/MLRS combo is not good for anything else.

We need a true multirole FFG to be able to maintain our capabilities even with a shrinking number of hulls.

The future F125 as it looks now is not top in any role and that for a huuuge price.
As if we have nothing better to do with our budget than building a whole new frigate class which is just good for some really unlikely land attack role.

So building a new design with the emphasizis on ASW and ASuW including a 127mm and RBS 15 for ASuW and land attack. Additionally you can buy some good weapons packages for the MH90s and go on with developing some usefull UAVs for the use on our FFGs and FSGs and go on with introducing land attack capabilities to our U212As.
That's it.
A navy with enough capabilities for the situations a navy should be able to cope with and with enough land attack capabilities for every amphibious operation we could face.

 

[McZosch]

Talking about F122s: As a frequent visitor to Den Helder and that fancy navy museum I'm very sad about the Dutch navy selling off all those Karel Dormans... As far as I've heard they (along with their sisters F122) are considered as versatile and successful designs, very good seakeeping and good combat capabilities.

F122s are not sisters of the Doormans, It was the Kortenaer-class, nealry entirely sold to Greece. So, the RDN paid off the 10-ship Kortenaer-class AND 6 out of 8 Doormans. Plus 2 Jacob van Heemskerck AAW frigates. 18 fine ships!

 

[Falstaff]

The whole concept of the F125 as a stabilization assymetrical warfare ship is much too specialised and IMHO not very good.

As I said before I too am a bit sceptic about that, but one must say that the F125 has some interesting features. For example the two crew concept and the possibility of staying two years at a time at the spot.

One modern 127mm naval gun together with for example RBS 15 with its land attack capability should bring enough metal into the air to support any small speedboat operation this frigate is designed to support.
Using a navalized 155mm PzH2000 system and a navalised MLRS system is much too much emphazisis on this dubious land attack role.

I agree. It is not that we are supporting large scale landing operations and have to provide sustained fire support, aren't we? I think MONARC is an interesting concept, but what can we use it for and the sacrificing a good ol' naval multi role gun? I don't know.
BTW AFAIK the PHz 2000 reached 60km with that South African base bleed high velocity whatsitsname round... (Will I have to search? )

We need a true multirole FFG to be able to maintain our capabilities even with a shrinking number of hulls.

Yes, but a true multi role frigate would have to be a somewhat bigger ship like the MEKO X concept with more VLS to eventually incorporate Tomahawks as the Dutch intend to do. That would be a real deterring land attack capability + that features I mentioned above. I guess it would be a fine ship.
Imagine a "Helmut Kohl"-class of ships.

...go on with developing some usefull UAVs for the use on our FFGs and FSGs and go on with introducing land attack capabilities to our U212As.

exactly!

 

[Waylander]

With the money we safe if we not go on navalizing the PzH200 and MARS systems we should get a good multirole ship for the price intended for the F125.

 

[contedicavour]

With the money we safe if we not go on navalizing the PzH200 and MARS systems we should get a good multirole ship for the price intended for the F125.

From an Italian perspective I don't see why you would bother to navalize the PzH2000. I've got nothing against that excellent SP artillery, we are building ouserlves 70 on licence. My point is that a multirole naval gun such as our 127mm by Oto Melara can shoot up to 100+ km away guided ammo rounds. Sure, a 127mm is not as powerful as a 155mm round, but still range is much higher and accuracy is granted by our Strales/Davide guidance programme. The Netherlands are working with us on that. Germany might be interested to join. That would save money.

cheers

 

[Waylander]

Just because of that.
Not enough range for the money. Even with modern based bleed ammo you "only" reach 60km with a 155mm PzH200 system.
And the restricted small land support capability we need for small forces a modern 127mm (Like Oto's one) should be enough.
Saves money and space on a new ship.

 

[MarcH]

Hello everybody, my first post here.

There are already talks underway, for the second batch of K 130. The original requirement asked for 3x5 Ships, to replace the FAC's.
The ETRuS has been mentioned as a mid-therm-requirenment. And F125 is at the moment somewhat beyond the budget. I think it is not that bad as design, but I request the usefulness of a vessel of that kind in the German Navy.
I would rather have the K 130 order reduced to 8 ships. In my opinion they are sufficient for patrol duty in the mediterrenean sea. A pretty cheap and fast addition would be one more F124.
I know most Navy guys would slaughter me for considering the K 130 as small frigate, as well as adding one more AAW frigate.
To get some landattack capability, I would like to update existing F123 and F124 with 127mm naval guns, as well as RBS 15 missiles. The old Exocets aboard the F123 are anyway in need for replacement.
For the 127mm gun we can choose between Italian or US made turrets, and a large quantity of existing ammunitions.
With those K 130's und the additional F124 one could reduce the workload of the F122 somewhat.

Diesel subs sell these days like hot cake. Therefore I would like a ship at least as capable as the F122 in ASW role.
The F125 design as it is at the moment, already offers a new propulsion and crew concept. Outfittet with a 127mm gun, RBS 15 missiles, RAM and ESSM they would be multirole enough in my opinion.
To sum it up:
8 K130
4 F123
4 F124
4 F125(ASW..)
3 EGV
8-12 U212/U212A

With the Royal Navy loosing most of their escorts in favour of carriers and SSN's, that could be a nice complement.