The Spanish Navy - Armada Española

[Gladius]

Mod edit: Moved from the RN thread.

by now no approval of the new 2 cvf, only news of more cuts and cuts in the british armed forces, France with the same if not less g.d.p. than britain is strongly commited to a strong and powerful armed forces, only 2 years after so heavy cuts they will have another heavy ones, i doubt about averything with this british m.o.d. (alias ministry of cuts) for me would not be strange that finally they cancelled the cvf project, for example the Spanish navy is planning a replacement for the carrier principe de asturias, it will be little larger than the italian cavour (39000 TONNES) with an air wing of 30 fighters and they will build another 2 lpd,s plus the building of the new LHD, plus the immediate aproval of 3 new ffg alvaro de bazan class with aegis missile sistem, maybe in 10-15 years the spanish navy could be equal or even more powerful than the R.N. in the medium longer term the british armed forces will be thing of the past with these stupid british politicians both labour or conservative, defence it nothing important for them the strategic defence review of blair,s government it,s only a strategic defence heavy cut.

WHATTT!!!

No, no, no... Man, stop smoking these stuff, is bad for your health.

Unfortunately, your info is very far of the reality... overlander.

To clarify this question. It is true that our Defense Budget is stably rising for the last few fiscal years. The situation of the plans of the Navy is consistent with this budgetary rise of the 20% (only in the last three FY), with new ships coming and older ships being decommisioned.
But about the plans, you said: A new STOVL CV (39,000 Tons) + the BPE Juan Carlos I + 2 new LPDs + 3 new F-100; plus I suppose, our present navy strength. Sorry, but your info is simply wrong.

The Spanish Navy plans for the near future are conceived over a fleet of:

· 1 STOVL CV [R-11 Príncipe de Asturias] - To be replaced over 2015 by a new CV of a still undecided design (STOVL/CTOL/CATOBAR/STOBAR), pending of the clarification of the future of the F-35B.
· 5-6 AEGIS Frigates [F-100 Class] - 4 Finished (F-101-F104), 1 Building (F-105) and 1 more planned but not approved or financed by the Cabinet at this moment.
· 6 Missile Frigates [F-80 Class] - Now in process of Mid Life Upgrade.
· 1 Missile Frigate [F-72 Asturias] - To be replaced by the F-105 Roger de Lauria.
· 14 Maritime Action Ships [BAM Class] - 4 Building, 10 more planned but not approved or financed by the Cabinet at this moment.
· 1 LHD/BPE [L-61 Juan Carlos I] - Building by Navantia, to be commissioned in 2008.
· 2 LPDs [Galicia Class] - The L-51 Galicia & L-52 Castilla.
· 2 LSTs [Newport Class] - To be replaced by the L-61 Juan Carlos I.
· 2 AORs [A-14 Patiño & A-15 Cantabria] - The Patiño now in active, the bigger Cantabria (BAC Program Class) being constructed now by Navantia.
· 1 Fleet Oiler [A-11 Marqués de la Ensenada] - To be replaced by the A-15 Cantabria.
· 4 SS Agosta [S-70 Class] - To be replaced by the S-80 Class.
· 4 SSK S-80 [S-80 Class] - Building now, predicted to be finished (2012-2014).
· 1 MCM Command Vessel [M-41 Diana] - Conversion of the warship F-32 Diana (Descubierta Class)
· 6 MCM Vessels [Segura Class]
· 5 OPV Descubierta [P-75 Class] - Conversion of the warships F-31 & F-33 to F-36 (Descubierta Class).
· 4 OPV Serviola [P-71 Class]
· 4 OPV Chilreu [P-61 Class]
· 13 OPV [Anaga & Barcelo Class] - Survivors of 16 ships to be replaced gradually by the better capable BAMs in the next years.
· 2 Intelligence Ships [A-111 Alerta & a new Int. Ship] - The Alerta now in active and a new ship will be build as a BAM variant (planned in the BAM Program)
· 1 Light Transport [A-01 Contramaestre Casado]
· The Spanish Army Naval Train: 2 RO-RO permanently in service (A-05 El Camino Español, A-04 Martín Posadillo) crewed by the Navy.

And many other minor patrol, auxiliary, hospital, polar research or scientific/hidrographic ships.

As you can see, too far of the predicted force strength of the Royal Navy for the next decade. All info that I quoted before was public announced and defended by the Defence Ministry, the State Secretary of Defense, and the Admirals of the Navy, as could be verified reading the sessions diaries of the Senatorial Defense Commission and some info was also included the text of the Royal Decree 416/2006 (April 11th) and the Strategic Revision of the Defense (RED).

Now many rumors are in the pipes, but they are only that... unconfirmed rumors.

 

[contedicavour]

WHATTT!!!

No, no, no... Man, stop smoking these stuff, is bad for your health.

Unfortunately, your info is very far of the reality... overlander.

To clarify this question. It is true that our Defense Budget is stably rising for the last few fiscal years. The situation of the plans of the Navy is consistent with this budgetary rise of the 20% (only in the last three FY), with new ships coming and older ships being decommisioned.
But about the plans, you said: A new STOVL CV (39,000 Tons) + the BPE Juan Carlos I + 2 new LPDs + 3 new F-100; plus I suppose, our present navy strength. Sorry, but your info is simply wrong.

The Spanish Navy plans for the near future are conceived over a fleet of:

· 1 STOVL CV [R-11 Príncipe de Asturias] - To be replaced over 2015 by a new CV of a still undecided design (STOVL/CTOL/CATOBAR/STOBAR), pending of the clarification of the future of the F-35B.
· 5-6 AEGIS Frigates [F-100 Class] - 4 Finished (F-101-F104), 1 Building (F-105) and 1 more planned but not approved or financed by the Cabinet at this moment.
· 6 Missile Frigates [F-80 Class] - Now in process of Mid Life Upgrade.
· 1 Missile Frigate [F-72 Asturias] - To be replaced by the F-105 Roger de Lauria.
· 14 Maritime Action Ships [BAM Class] - 4 Building, 10 more planned but not approved or financed by the Cabinet at this moment.
· 1 LHD/BPE [L-61 Juan Carlos I] - Building by Navantia, to be commissioned in 2008.
· 2 LPDs [Galicia Class] - The L-51 Galicia & L-52 Castilla.
· 2 LSTs [Newport Class] - To be replaced by the L-61 Juan Carlos I.
· 2 AORs [A-14 Patiño & A-15 Cantabria] - The Patiño now in active, the bigger Cantabria (BAC Program Class) being constructed now by Navantia.
· 1 Fleet Oiler [A-11 Marqués de la Ensenada] - To be replaced by the A-15 Cantabria.
· 4 SS Agosta [S-70 Class] - To be replaced by the S-80 Class.
· 4 SSK S-80 [S-80 Class] - Building now, predicted to be finished (2012-2014).
· 1 MCM Command Vessel [M-41 Diana] - Conversion of the warship F-32 Diana (Descubierta Class)
· 6 MCM Vessels [Segura Class]
· 5 OPV Descubierta [P-75 Class] - Conversion of the warships F-31 & F-33 to F-36 (Descubierta Class).
· 4 OPV Serviola [P-71 Class]
· 4 OPV Chilreu [P-61 Class]
· 13 OPV [Anaga & Barcelo Class] - Survivors of 16 ships to be replaced gradually by the better capable BAMs in the next years.
· 2 Intelligence Ships [A-111 Alerta & a new Int. Ship] - The Alerta now in active and a new ship will be build as a BAM variant (planned in the BAM Program)
· 1 Light Transport [A-01 Contramaestre Casado]
· The Spanish Army Naval Train: 2 RO-RO permanently in service (A-05 El Camino Español, A-04 Martín Posadillo) crewed by the Navy.

And many other minor patrol, auxiliary, hospital, polar research or scientific/hidrographic ships.

As you can see, too far of the predicted force strength of the Royal Navy for the next decade. All info that I quoted before was public announced and defended by the Defence Ministry, the State Secretary of Defense, and the Admirals of the Navy, as could be verified reading the sessions diaries of the Senatorial Defense Commission and some info was also included the text of the Royal Decree 416/2006 (April 11th) and the Strategic Revision of the Defense (RED).

Now many rumors are in the pipes, but they are only that... unconfirmed rumors.

Very interesting reading Gladius, thanks. To what extent the increasing number of F100 could jeopardize a new programme to replace the ageing Santa Maria/OHP class ? Financially how can the Spanish Navy afford to replace the 5 Baleares FFG (modified Know with SM-1) with 6 ships which are in all but name DDGs ??
The only area where I see force reduction is in submarines, where the 4 Daphne and 4 Agosta will after all be replaced by 4 S-80 in all.

cheers

 

[Gladius]

Very interesting reading Gladius, thanks. To what extent the increasing number of F100 could jeopardize a new programme to replace the ageing Santa Maria/OHP class ? Financially how can the Spanish Navy afford to replace the 5 Baleares FFG (modified Know with SM-1) with 6 ships which are in all but name DDGs ??
The only area where I see force reduction is in submarines, where the 4 Daphne and 4 Agosta will after all be replaced by 4 S-80 in all.

A fast and extremely simplified resume of the question, without many details to saving interminable space and time.

The situation was the next: The Spanish Navy had the requirements for 15 oceanic escorts (as said the High Sea Plan) this was a question never solved as our Navy had only 8 oceanic escorts (5 F-70 + 3 F80) after the decommission of all our Destroyers in the first 90s without replacement. The situation was planned to be solved by the NATO NFR-90 Program, but the delays and problems of the program forced to Spain to abandon it and to seek a solution by our own account, born the program F-100. Firstly a light ship of about 3500 tons, OTO-Melara of 76mm, 32 cells VLS etc...
The time during the develop of the program is passing, the F-100s were growing and growing (127mm, SM2MR & ESSM, Tomahawks, 48 cells VLS instead 32, etc...) and the Navy meanwhile press for more ships, the F-80s were extended on three units in two batchs (F-84 Batch II, F-85 & F86 Batch III) to compensate this. Then you have 11 oceanic escorts (5 F-70 & 6 F-80) and now the spanish Navy is presented with the problem to replace the five Baleares (F-70s) and the need to replace many OPVs. The navy present to the Government two solutions, an extended F-100 Program with two new ships and a new class (to develop) to cover the OPVs situation (now we have the BAM class for this) and at the same time convert the survivors F-30 on OPVs as stop-gap measure, or the second option a new class of 4-8 lighter AEGIS ships (with SPY-1F or K) based in the F-310 or the smaller AFCON corvettes and a new lighter OPV class, the cost of the second plan is higher, and the first option is the favorite of the Navy, because the replacement of the six F-80 (recall the younger ship of the class have only 11 years) is predicted to begin around 2015. And that time able to the Navy to project a new model to replace the Santa Maria Class (F-80s).

Yes the most apparent reduction of the Spanish Fleet is over the Submarine Chapter, but remember also our total numbers of escorts will be also reduced with the five Baleares decommissioned and the 6 Descubiertas (on light escorts duties) converted to different roles, while we receive 5-6 F100 for escort tasks. An absolute qualitative leap but also a quantitative reduction.

The amphibious chapter is also touched contedicavour, we gain a LHD but we loss the two LST, and you know one ship only may be on one site at the same time, and she also need refits like any other ship. For that the impulse on capabilities is clear but it come with some inconvenient.

 

[contedicavour]

Thks for the history

Anyway even if you preserve a 11-strong main surface ship force as you had in the '90s with 6 Santa Maria and 5 Baleares, your Navy will still be radically strengthened with 6 AAW FFGs and 5 or 6 new FFGs probably more focused on ASW or land attack.
True, you'll have lost the corvette force represented by the Descubiertas, but if you do build 14 BAMs coastal patrol is well taken care of (for a longer shoreline we have 8 corvettes and 10 big OPVH).
The amphib squadron loses 2 LSTs but ends up with one big LHD and 2 LPD... that reminds me of the UK main force (Ocean + 2 Albion LPDs).
I keep the impression Spain is the only Western European country who is strengthening its navy at a time when all the others are cutting severely...

cheers

 

[Gladius]

Yea it's true, and we are very satisfied by that. These are the results of the bigger budgets always wanted but until recently never approved by our past Governments, only with the last Aznar years and now with Zapatero we have more money dedicated to Defense Programs. Our problems are now more related with personal shortages than money. But you know, you never have enough money to spend.

 

[contedicavour]

Yea it's true, and we are very satisfied by that. These are the results of the bigger budgets always wanted but until recently never approved by our past Governments, only with the last Aznar years and now with Zapatero we have more money dedicated to Defense Programs. Our problems are now more related with personal shortages than money. But you know, you never have enough money to spend.

Lucky you !! What's more amazing is that even with a left wing government the money keeps increasing !!

cheers

 

[BoabDilDK]

Thank very much for the history and plans for your navy.

Do you have a link to more information on the BAM Class?

 

[Gladius]

Sorry BoabDilDK, in English the informacion available on the BAM* class, is scarce and often incomplete.

Global Security have a brief info of the program here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/bam.htm
Please note the Picture not correspondent with the accepted design of the BAM.

At this moment, the most accessible and extensive source is available only in Spanish, on the website of the Spanish Navy. Below the link to the BAM Program.

http://www.armada.mde.es/esp/ElFuturo/bam/Generalidades.asp?SecAct=05201

*Buque de Acción Marítima/Ship of Action Maritime.

 

[BoabDilDK]

Thank you Gladius

I fortunately speak spanish so I will have a good read now.

 

[Gladius]

Great.

If you are interested, is expected that in brief appear an addendum of the program BAM (and other recent programs with budgetary assignment approved by the Cabinet) in the summary of main programs published by the DGAM (General Direction of Armament and Material) on internet, unfortunately not updated from last August.

http://www.mde.es/dgam/pdamprinprog.htm

 

[contedicavour]

A detail I'm curious about : why the BAM (same for the BPE) seem to waste a lot of space aft behind the flight deck ? I would have thought sonars or torpedoes if we were in the '80s but there is neither aboard on the BAM.
I'm interested in any explanation.

cheers

 

[Gladius]

On the BPE you have a very similar disposition like the Príncipe with the presence of the Aft Aircraft Lift, this zone is affected (in the BPE) by the structural impositions derived of the presence of well dock below and include the space reserved for two CIWS/RAM (recall the bulkier dimensions of the Meroka system) or two 20-35mm positions to HAS menace situations:

See said positions (with two 20mm depicted) on this pic:
http://www.armada.mde.es/esp/ElFuturo/BuqueProyeccionEstrategica/images/bpe2g.jpg

And if you wish compare it with the astern view (with similar disposition) of the R-11 Príncipe de Asturias with the two Merokas.
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/4434/pdalp1pkh1.jpg
Photo by Joaquín Ojeda.

In the BAM class this space that you refer, after the flight deck, is reserved for modular configuration, a cargo crane and 2 RHIBs. The plans included the capability to be fitted with up to 3 mission configured containers: UAVs/UCAVs, EW & ElInt/SigInt/ComInt, Anti-Pollution, Habitability, Medicalized, Divers Support, Special Ops Forces Support, CWS (Containerized Weapons Systems), etc... Another three would be installed on the flight deck if the helo presence were considered unnecessary to the mission.

 

[swerve]

...
At this moment, the most accessible and extensive source is available only in Spanish, ...

If none of the real Spanish speakers (such as you) are available, & anyone wants something explained, I'm happy to have a go at a translation. Just don't expect perfection.

 

[Mangusta CBT]

In my opinion Spain and Italy could work on a common project for the substitute of Garibaldi and Principe de Asturias. Good idea for cut the cost

 

[Gladius]

But Mangusta CBT, would be the requirements intended by the Spanish and Italian Navies common enough to produce a viable design for this hypothetical joint-venture?

I doubt that.

 

[European]

But Mangusta CBT, would be the requirements intended by the Spanish and Italian Navies common enough to produce a viable design for this hypothetical joint-venture?

I doubt that.

Sure,
the main requirements is to save money.
More, a share of requirements can be good for both navies.
Spain is able to build cheap, basic and low-equipped ship.
Italy is use to build expensive 'full optional', too much armed, electronic equipment, expensive military standard, expensive and too much mighty engines, all wasting a lot of money.

A merge of the two opposite will lead a well balanced result.

 

[santi]

Hi, European

Sure,
the main requirements is to save money.

...are you sure .
Spain is spending a lot of money in the development of S-80 submarine. Would be a cheaper (and faster) solution built the Scorpene AIP or even buy off the shelf the license for the U212 or U214.
When Izar (now Navantia) proposed to the Spanish Navy the AFCON corvette (at least half the cost, or less, of a F-100) they said "no thanks, we want a couple more F-100".

The money is vital but not the only parameter.

Cavour seems a superb ship but it’s a radical different point of view of "how to make an STOVL carrier" compared with R-11 and even the BPE (although this is more an LHD).
Take out half the propulsion power, that "frigate items" (EMPAR, Aster-30), put an island half the size and make an hangar in accordance with a nearly 30.000 t ship and, may be, you have a possible STOVL carrier "Spanish style". Is that what MMI needs?

Regards

 

[Mangusta CBT]

If Uk and France collaborate for a joint "aircraft carrier" i think that all is possible

 

[santi]

Of course, it would be great, but not easy.

 

[European]

Hola Santi.
How much does S-80 cost?