EA/18G Growler

knightrider4

Active Member
Super Hornet

What would is the probability that the RAAF will purchase a number of EA-18G's and would they be included in the 24 aircraft to be ordered. If so what ratio of EA-18G's to FA-18F's would be required?
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Personally, I don't see the advantages of the Super Hornet? Really, F-15E Strike Eagle offers way more capabilities.........and could be leased and easily sold secondhand to many current users in the region. :D
Like what?

The Super Hornet operates ALL the same weapon systems, plus has a more advanced EWSP systems and is more likely FAR cheaper to acquire AND to operate than the F-15E, in addition to the points raised by Big-E...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What would is the probability that the RAAF will purchase a number of EA-18G's and would they be included in the 24 aircraft to be ordered. If so what ratio of EA-18G's to FA-18F's would be required?
I'll stick my head on the block. maybe the chances will go up if wedgetail slips again...
 

Lawman

New Member
Perhaps the best thing would be to buy the Shornets, and have Boeing equip perhaps eight of them as EA-18G models as compensation for the Wedgetail delays!
 

chrisrobsoar

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Perhaps the best thing would be to buy the Shornets, and have Boeing equip perhaps eight of them as EA-18G models as compensation for the Wedgetail delays!
Nice idea, but this implies the delays are down to Boeing. They are integrating the equipment, but what is the prime cause of the delays?

Wedgetail may prove to be a good concept, but it is rather putting all your eggs in one basket.

It is also a capital assest. Why not have a few fast movers that would have a better chance of escape if things get rough?



Chris
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From magoos traffic they appear to be sep and thus supplemental.

If thats the case, then I'm happy as I've never been a fan of a single platform solution irrespective of what we get.
Thanks for that.

If this ends up being the case it is pretty good news. The SH F and G in combination with JORN, Wedgetaile etc would make a pretty capable maritime strike package for defence purposes from my uninformed view.

Better still we may be able to avoid the higher cost initial production run JSF due to the additional capability so te overall cost may not be so different. Maybe one day we could afford F-35B's (now I am day dreaming) as well for the LHD's.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
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Guys

Just a reminder - the missions of the EA-18G and the Wedgetail are vastly different.

The EA-18G is an electronic attack aircraft; able to locate, identify, jam and/or destroy enemy radars and electronic emitters by either electronic or explosive means. The G is basically a re-wired F minus the gun and plus the wingtip and pod mounted ALQ-99 & -218 jamming and receiving gear. All Block 2 Fs are able to be converted to Gs so that the USN will always have a constant number of Gs available despite heavy maintenance requirements if required.

The Wedgetail is an early warning and control aircraft, able to independantly or via a network, see, identify and track airborne and some surface targets from hundreds of kilometres away, and passively feed targetting data to forward deployed fighter/attack aircraft.

The ADF has never had a requirement for a dedicated electronic attack aircraft, and it is therefore very unlikely we would acquire any G models. If that requirement became necessary, the F/A-18F's APG-79 AESA radar and ALR-67 RWR could combine to provid a limited organic electronic attack capability, as could the F-35's APG-81 and its EW set combination down the track.

Cheers

Magoo
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Like what?

The Super Hornet operates ALL the same weapon systems, plus has a more advanced EWSP systems and is more likely FAR cheaper to acquire AND to operate than the F-15E, in addition to the points raised by Big-E...
...datalinks, systems integration, easier supportability and maintainability, an easier transition from current Hornets, a A$90m unit cost vs ~A$120m...the list goes on.

Plus, and probably most importantly, in 2025-30, the USAF will be done with their F-15s, so we would again be an orphan operator of a complex and aging aircraft as we have been with the F-111 the past decade, and experience I doubt the RAAF would want to repeat.

Magoo
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Guys

Just a reminder - the missions of the EA-18G and the Wedgetail are vastly different.

The EA-18G is an electronic attack aircraft; able to locate, identify, jam and/or destroy enemy radars and electronic emitters by either electronic or explosive means. The G is basically a re-wired F minus the gun and plus the wingtip and pod mounted ALQ-99 & -218 jamming and receiving gear. All Block 2 Fs are able to be converted to Gs so that the USN will always have a constant number of Gs available despite heavy maintenance requirements if required.
Yep I was aware of that. I referred Wedgetail, JORN ect as surveilance assets and should have added the AP-3C as well.

However, for maritime strike it would appear usful to have some G models in the line up to make life as hard as possible for the target. Given the the much mooted spread of SAM systems perhaps it would also be useful for that role (mind you the risk appears to be a tad overstated at this time)
 

LancerMc

New Member
From the articles I have read about the Wedgetail, there has been some talk (talk only) about the MESA radar able to jam enemy radars. In theory the MESA could jam or damage a ground based radar system by overwhelming the fixed reciever with focused radar emissions. They may test this ability later down the road, but it wouldn't compare to the overall abilities of the EA-18 Growler.
 

JBodnar39

New Member
Nah, I wouldn't waste my money on F18s or F15s. I would just carry on with the current inventory for the next decade. Frankly if numbers become an issue, I'd lease a few ex USMC/USN F18s to maintain pilot numbers. Leasing F15s may require some pilot retraining.

The RAAF isn't like the Singapore or Korean Air Force who have to replace large inventories of F4, A4 or F5s. If CAS is an issue, buy Apaches and put the burden of strikes on the existing F18s.

He has got a point. I think that the current fleet of F-18's may be able to soldier on as an effective aasert until the J-35 comes into service. From what I know about the F-18E/F, the only real advantage it has over the C model is the ability to land on a carrier with a larger load (which is irrelevant to Australia) an AESA radar (which could also be fitted to the C) and an operational radius that is increased by maybee 20% and that is due largely to the fact hat the E/F can carry larger exernal fuel tanks. I say stick with the C until the F-35 comes into service.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Nah, I wouldn't waste my money on F18s or F15s. I would just carry on with the current inventory for the next decade. Frankly if numbers become an issue, I'd lease a few ex USMC/USN F18s to maintain pilot numbers. Leasing F15s may require some pilot retraining.

The RAAF isn't like the Singapore or Korean Air Force who have to replace large inventories of F4, A4 or F5s. If CAS is an issue, buy Apaches and put the burden of strikes on the existing F18s.
The biggest problem that is being overlooked by these defence "experts" that write in the broadsheets is the lack of PLATFORMS that wil result from retiring the F-111 without replacement.

Technically we have 75-80 odd "frontline" combat capable aircraft right now. By retiring the F-111 this figure will reduce the combat capable fleet to 57x F/A-18 aircraft.

The biggest problem with this plan has always been exactly this. The F/A-18's can obviously be enhanced and improve IT's combat and strike capability, but nothing can be done to make this aircraft perform multiple simultaneous roles. Only additional aircraft can do that. The ability to use longer ranged weapons, or more lethal ones, does not significantly increase the ability of the overall Force to drop bombs or conduct other air combat tasks in multiple locations. The F/A-18 fleet are STILL required to provide ALL our air defence, maritime strike, tactical recon, battlefield strike/CAS roles, NOW without addition to the fleet they will have to bear the burden of providing ADF with long range strike capability too.

Add on top of this that the aircraft will have to be taken off line for up to 8 months at a time for the Centre Barrel replacement program as WELL and RAAF's plan starts to look just a bit wobbly...

Leasing F/A-18's off the USN/USMC from what I understand is NOT an available option. Whilst I agree it would be the easiest way to introduce the additional airframes we need, it's simply not possible and in any case does not IMPROVE our capability only "expand" it, if everyone follows that.

Block II Rhino's can be introduced quickly, provide a significant enhancement in capability over our legacy Bugs and are relatively simple to introduce into RAAF service, given our familiarity with legacy Hornets.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Actually the biggest mistake made was not purchasing F/A-18C's in the 1990's.

Now we ran out of flight hours and have to replace everything at once.

Ideally we should have bought the C model hornets instead of upgrading the older A model hornets in the 1990's. Then the A models would have been used for the basic low-risk missions, while the more advanced C models would be the front line aircraft.

If we did this the F/A-18C models would still have plenty of flight hours left right now and would have easily lasted us until the JSF arrived. We would then retire the F/A-18A's once the JSF entered service and the F/A-18C's would then perform the low-risk misisons with the JSF being the front line aircraft.

You are buying aircraft twice as often, but when you do purchase the aircraft you are only require half as many. So in the long run it costs pretty much the same.

This leap frogging is definitely the ideal way of purchasing combat aircraft and is performed by most major countries like US, U.K, India etc.

You dont need a 120million dollar stealthy strike fighter to escort a refueling tanker. A 30 million dollar 20 year old aircraft can do this just as good, so the leap frogging is good.

We could still get back into the leap frogging. If Australia bought 2 squadrons of Super Hornets now we could then buy two JSF squadrons in 10-15 years time. With the Super Hornet purchase the super Hornets would then take alot of the flight hours off our current F/A-18A's. We could then spread the flight hours over the current F/A-18A fleet and they could then last us until 2020, which matches the arrival date of the Full scale production JSF's.

We would only need to purchase two squadrons of JSF as we'd have two squadrons of Super Hornets.

If we purchase only one squadron, then this is really only a stop gap, and it would be interesting if we keep them once we go with the JSF.

It could still be great having a squadron of Super Bugs, as we'd be buying block 2 aircraft they all could be updated to G spec to assist the JSF's, or as control stations for posible UCAV purchase.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Well, the point being how many times has the F111s been used by the RAAF in combat?
One of the reasons the F-111 hasn't been used in combat by Australia is because of its value as a deterrent. It's been our 'big stick' for 30 years.

weasal said:
Agree that sortie rates will probably fall with the retirement of the F111. However, I think the RAAF can probably survive with a lower aircraft sortie rate. This is afterall a temporary situation.
A temporary situation which could potentially hurt the RAAF a great deal - in order to maintain sufficient fast jet pilots until the JSF arrives, we'll need sufficicent airframes in order for them to stay current and maintain their job satisfaction. Otherwise, a fair proportion will leave to fly for the airlines, most of whom are currently recruiting, and we'll never get them back.

weasel said:
Buying new aircraft now will merely mean delaying introduction of JSF in the coming decade. If the JSF doesn't materialise, I think the RAAF still has other options to make up the numbers but I don't think it is that urgent to require consideration of new purchases at this time. Still, I'm not the defense minister. Perhaps the defence ministry may have a different logic matrix. The US is probably actively encouraging Australia to purchase new aircraft to boost its defence sales. Perhaps Howard will succumb to this pressure.
The only plausible reason the US would be pressuring Australia to buy JSFs is to buy them early, thus making the USAF's jets a little cheaper as they'll be a little further down the curve. The numbers we buy is pretty insignificant from the overall foreign sales point of view for the US.

Magoo
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Ideally we should have bought the C model hornets instead of upgrading the older A model hornets in the 1990's. Then the A models would have been used for the basic low-risk missions, while the more advanced C models would be the front line aircraft.

If we did this the F/A-18C models would still have plenty of flight hours left right now and would have easily lasted us until the JSF arrived. We would then retire the F/A-18A's once the JSF entered service and the F/A-18C's would then perform the low-risk misisons with the JSF being the front line aircraft.
It's great to have 20:20 hindsight isn't it? We didn't know about the centre-barrel issues Australia and Canada completed a structural analysis in the late 90s, by which time 'classic' Hornet production had ended.

rjmaz1 said:
This leap frogging is definitely the ideal way of purchasing combat aircraft and is performed by most major countries like US, U.K, India etc.
Agreed; a two tiered force structure, although more expensive to operate, allows you to plan and spread your future defence spending more evenly.

rjmaz1 said:
You dont need a 120million dollar stealthy strike fighter to escort a refueling tanker. A 30 million dollar 20 year old aircraft can do this just as good, so the leap frogging is good.
Hey, why not use A-10s??? :eek:nfloorl:

But seriously, that $120m stealth fighter is $120m because of its advanced sensors, datalinking capability, integrated systems giving better pilot SA etc, so it will therefore be far more effective at protecting a refueling (sic) tanker.

JBodnar39 said:
From what I know about the F-18E/F, the only real advantage it has over the C model is the ability to land on a carrier with a larger load (which is irrelevant to Australia) an AESA radar (which could also be fitted to the C) and an operational radius that is increased by maybee 20% and that is due largely to the fact hat the E/F can carry larger exernal fuel tanks.
You're kidding right??? Yes, it has more range (+35% internal), payload (+32%) and bring back capability (+50%). But, it also has vastly more advanced integrated systems, the AESA radar (which cannot be fitted to a C model or even the first 125 built E/F models either), built-in low observables, and so much more room for future growth. No, it's not an F-35, but it sure as hell aint an F/A-18A+ either. Don't forget folks, our HUGged Hornets may have some systems which in some ways are better then late build C/Ds, but they're still A model engines and A model airframes, and therefore still carry those inadequacies.

The E/F is a half generation ahead of the late build teen series jets, and half a generation behind the F-35/F-22. In many ways, its systems will provide Australia with a much flatter learning curve into the F-35 when it does finally arrive.

Magoo
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
You're kidding right??? Yes, it has more range (+35% internal), payload (+32%) and bring back capability (+50%). But, it also has vastly more advanced integrated systems, the AESA radar (which cannot be fitted to a C model or even the first 125 built E/F models either), built-in low observables, and so much more room for future growth. No, it's not an F-35, but it sure as hell aint an F/A-18A+ either. Don't forget folks, our HUGged Hornets may have some systems which in some ways are better then late build C/Ds, but they're still A model engines and A model airframes, and therefore still carry those inadequacies.

The E/F is a half generation ahead of the late build teen series jets, and half a generation behind the F-35/F-22. In many ways, its systems will provide Australia with a much flatter learning curve into the F-35 when it does finally arrive.

Magoo
Agreed. The A/B/C/D series CANNOT use the APG-79 because the radar requires a complete new "front end" to fit on the Rhino.

How can RAAF survive with a lower sortie rate? I suppose if they don't deploy operationally and no-one "attacks" Australia we'll be fine, but EVERY major Country within oour region is introducing advanced combat aircraft into service in equal or greater numbers to their present fleets. From a strategic stand point alone, RAAF cannot "go backwards".

The centre piece of our defensive strategy is the overmatch our air force has over any potential regional "opponent". The elimination of this is out of the question. There is NOT one good reason why Australia should not procure a Squadron or so of Rhino's now to replace the F-111 and "ease" up the path to the JSF and allow us time to buy it when we and IT are ready...

There are PLENTY of good reasons why Australia should not purchase another aircraft or forgoe the purchase of Rhino's all together...
 

chrisrobsoar

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The centre piece of our defensive strategy is the overmatch our air force has over any potential regional "opponent". The elimination of this is out of the question. There is NOT one good reason why Australia should not procure a Squadron or so of Rhino's now to replace the F-111 and "ease" up the path to the JSF and allow us time to buy it when we and IT are ready...

There are PLENTY of good reasons why Australia should not purchase another aircraft or forgoe the purchase of Rhino's all together...
I agree 100%.

Procuring a squadron of F/A-18E/F/G aircraft would be prudent allowing the F-111 to retire, before some major problem causes them to be grounded, and make allowances for possible slippage in the F-35 program.

At present this is not a necessary policy, but it would be prudent.

Setting up the IPT now, to carryout the preparatory work is necessary, so that the government has the information if it wishes to order the aircraft next year.

At present its still about options, staying ahead of the game and being in a position to make a decision in sufficient time, so that the solution can be brought online before current capability is degraded.


Chris
 
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