U-214 SSK problems

[Betasys]

On the 15th of November, the Greek Navy officially comunicated to HDW the decision to refuse acceptance of delivery of the Papanikolis type U214 submarine.
Among the reasons mentioned:

-Excessive roll on surface (up to 56 degrees).
-Excessive underwater noise generation.
-Periscope vibrations.
-Frequent falls of the ISUS combat system.
-Power losses in the AIP.
-Sea water leaks.

 

[contedicavour]

On the 15th of November, the Greek Navy officially comunicated to HDW the decision to refuse acceptance of delivery of the Papanikolis type U214 submarine.
Among the reasons mentioned:

-Excessive roll on surface (up to 56 degrees).
-Excessive underwater noise generation.
-Periscope vibrations.
-Frequent falls of the ISUS combat system.
-Power losses in the AIP.
-Sea water leaks.

That's a bit strange, since a few days ago I read (on www.meretmarine.com) that the 1st U214 has been officially delivered. I'm starting to wonder whether it's not all a big fuss over already fixed problems just to be able to renegotiate pricing and offset for the remaining U214s on order...

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

That's a bit strange, since a few days ago I read (on www.meretmarine.com) that the 1st U214 has been officially delivered. I'm starting to wonder whether it's not all a big fuss over already fixed problems just to be able to renegotiate pricing and offset for the remaining U214s on order...

cheers

That is also what I am thinking. Greece is shaping the "legal battlespace" prior to renegotiations or perhaps even to cancel the deal.

 

[contedicavour]

That is also what I am thinking. Greece is shaping the "legal battlespace" prior to renegotiations or perhaps even to cancel the deal.

I guess they could cancel the option they took up recently for the 4th sub. Cancelling the entire deal would probably be a legal nightmare... let's see !

cheers

 

[Betasys]

That's a bit strange, since a few days ago I read (on www.meretmarine.com) that the 1st U214 has been officially delivered.
cheers

The article in your link confirms that the Greek Navy has refused to take delivery of the submarine.

 

[contedicavour]

The article in your link confirms that the Greek Navy has refused to take delivery of the submarine.

Oops wrong source then, here is the source who confirms delivery of the sub (it comes from Jane's). Spiacente per l'errore

Greece welcomes first-of-class Papanikolis
The Hellenic Navy (HN) has taken possession of its first-of-class Type 214 submarine, HN Papanikolis. Handed over by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems and Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft ...
23-Nov-2006

ciao

 

[Betasys]

Oops wrong source then, here is the source who confirms delivery of the sub (it comes from Jane's). Spiacente per l'errore

Greece welcomes first-of-class Papanikolis
The Hellenic Navy (HN) has taken possession of its first-of-class Type 214 submarine, HN Papanikolis. Handed over by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems and Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft ...
23-Nov-2006

ciao

That's from a subscription only service? And is the 23rd of November the actual date of the events described?
Oh e Auguri (in leggero ritardo)!

 

[contedicavour]

That's from a subscription only service? And is the 23rd of November the actual date of the events described?
Oh e Auguri (in leggero ritardo)!

Unfortunately yes, it's subscription only. However some members of this forum do have access, so if they can kindly share the containt that would be really nice of them

The date refers to the weekly update that Jane's Fighting Ships makes on its internet service, so the news isn't necessarily from the 23rd but belongs to the week before it.

If the news reported is accurate, that would mean the Greek Navy has caved in and accepted delivery of the 1st U214.

Grazie per gli auguri . Lei é anche sul forum di paginedidifesa ? Io no, ma lo leggo spesso.

ciao

 

[Betasys]

Unfortunately yes, it's subscription only. However some members of this forum do have access, so if they can kindly share the containt that would be really nice of them

The date refers to the weekly update that Jane's Fighting Ships makes on its internet service, so the news isn't necessarily from the 23rd but belongs to the week before it.

If the news reported is accurate, that would mean the Greek Navy has caved in and accepted delivery of the 1st U214.

Grazie per gli auguri . Lei é anche sul forum di paginedidifesa ? Io no, ma lo leggo spesso.

ciao

At this point I don't know what to think; have they accepted delivery or not? If yes did they cave in for fear of legal confrontation? Or by pressure from the greek (but HDW owned) shipyard where the other two boats are to be built? How true are the problems denounced and to what extent have these been overcome?


Ha scritto "containt" invece di "content". Si vede chiaramente la confusione tra inglese e francese. Io ho trascorso diversi anni in Gran Bretagna e in Francia, lo capisco.
Abbiamo quasi la stessa eta' (+/-6) e alcuni interessi in comune; possiamo anche darci del tu. Si scrivo anche qualcosa su pdd. Sei riuscito anche ad individuare il mio pseudonimo?:shudder

 

[contedicavour]

At this point I don't know what to think; have they accepted delivery or not? If yes did they cave in for fear of legal confrontation? Or by pressure from the greek (but HDW owned) shipyard where the other two boats are to be built? How true are the problems denounced and to what extent have these been overcome?


Ha scritto "containt" invece di "content". Si vede chiaramente la confusione tra inglese e francese. Io ho trascorso diversi anni in Gran Bretagna e in Francia, lo capisco.
Abbiamo quasi la stessa eta' (+/-6) e alcuni interessi in comune; possiamo anche darci del tu. Si scrivo anche qualcosa su pdd. Sei riuscito anche ad individuare il mio pseudonimo?:shudder

We need some help from our Greek friends on the forum... the local press must have been clearer on the outcome of this dispute !

PS volentieri, potresti attivare il private messaging ? No, non ho ancora scoperto il tuo pseudonimo ma qui abbiamo anche Maxsona.

 

[orko_8]

This is from hri.org

Gov't on issue involving sub, tank contracts
ATHENS, 17/11/2006 (ANA/MPA)
The government appeared adamant on Thursday, a day after a cascade of local press reports cited the national defense ministry's refusal to accept delivery of a new submarine unless its specifications are met, as well as unrelated preliminary negotiations over a batch of Leopard II main battle tanks ordered by the army.

"These are orders and contracts made by the previous government, and the current government is, appropriately, checking the absolute fulfillment of conditions in the relevant contracts," alternate government spokesman Evangelos Antonaros said in response to numerous questions during his regular press briefing.

Antonaros also clarified that the issues involving the submarine and the tanks are separate, "there is the issue of the submarine, where negotiations were held that did not generate desired results, therefore, the government's position still stands, namely, that it will not accept delivery of the submarine unless operational and technical specifications are fulfilled".

The spokesman said the case involving the MBTs is in the "preliminary stages, tests are underway that have not been completed."

The submarine in question, the "Papanikolis" (named after a celebrated WWII Greek submarine) was constructed at the HDW shipyards in Kiel, Germany. The latter is part of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, which emerged following a merger between ThyssenKrupp Werften and HDW. The marine systems division is a subsidiary of ThyssenKrupp Technologies.

Another two submarines in the Papanikolis class (type 214) are being constructed at the Hellenic Shipyards in Skaramangas (west of Athens), an industrial complex that is part of the ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems group

http://www.hri.org/news/greek/ana/2006/06-11-17.ana.html#06

 

[Betasys]

Thank you Orko_8. This clearly states Greek military and Government refusal to accept delivery.

It has been repeatedly (over the past months) affirmed that the Greek position be instrumental to obtaining a renegotiation of contractual conditions. After going as far as refusing acceptance of the unit and clearly taking the contention to another level other hypothesis emerge.
Namely that maybe the Germans aren't the infallible gods of submarine construction some imagine And maybe the U-214 really is a heavily faulty project.
This in turn clears the way for french submarine export successes and removes pressure on profit margins. The french must be very happy. The other contenders which might benefit are the russians and possibly the new entrant Italian-Russian co-project S1000.

 

[kams]

Unless this issue is resolved fast to the satisfaction of Greek govt., HDW will be hurt real bad. Pakistan is looking to acquire new subs and so does India. This news could not have come at a worse time for HDW.

 

[contedicavour]

Unless this issue is resolved fast to the satisfaction of Greek govt., HDW will be hurt real bad. Pakistan is looking to acquire new subs and so does India. This news could not have come at a worse time for HDW.

Definitively. French and Russian subs are now much more likely to win procurement races. Let's not forget though that HDW often won behind huge offset deals and the possibility of local construction.
The ages it took for the French to finalize the Pakistani shipyard for the Agosta 90Bs - compared for example with the South Korean's shipyard efficiency on U209 and U214 programmes - shows that it isn't that easy to make good on local construction.
The argument is even more valid for Russian subs, since Russia has no interest to push for local construction instead of export from its ailing defence industry.

cheers

 

[European]

May be greeks want to deal new prices for the subs?
That's remind me the troubles about Norvegian navy and spanish builder Navantia for the new norvegians frigates.


Anche Io sono su PdD

 

[Waylander]

I don't think that the whole U214 concept is a failure but maybe this special boat is a monday boat.
SK for example doesn't talk about problems.

 

[Betasys]

I don't think that the whole U214 concept is a failure but maybe this special boat is a monday boat.
SK for example doesn't talk about problems.

A list of 400 (four hundred) defects had been drawn by the Greek Navy. Ranging from drawers not fitting properly to the most serious ones recalled earlier.

Some issues appear construction linked like sea water seeping in through the hydraulic masts penetrations, but the excessive roll on surface in rough seas, if true, is most definatively a design issue.
Vibrations at the periscope above 3 knots could be construction influenced but hydrodynamic induced, so a design problem.
AIP going down is linked to excessive heat from the fuel cells. I recall reading something about the Italian U212 having had to add a cooling system to the original design which, optimized for the cool North Sea waters, wouldn't have worked on the warmer Med. waters. So maybe the Greeks didn't anticipate that? And the Germans didn't notice.
And what about the noise? HDW has been working on a new propeller to replace the original one. That suggests interaction between water flow aft and the propeller.

Some issues are to be expected on first of class, but here there are far too many. Some could be sloppy construction, a lot are design faults.

As for the South Korean units we'll have to wait and see. On the one hand they could have benefited from some lessons learned with 'Papanikolis', on the other hand they are all to be built locally by a shipyard that doesn't have the experience of HDW. ....ehm .. or maybe that's a good thing... (kidding)

And of course the entire dispute could have been contained had HDW not dismissed the Greek complaints as pretexts. Maybe success and high esteem do carry a price in terms of complecency.

Waylander, since you are in Kiel, maybe you could enquire directly in the shipyard (Kiel or Hamburg?) and let us know

I'm sorry about all the smilies but from the point of view of an external observer, possibly slightly interested, the entire is story is kind of funny... What's that German word for taking pleasure at other people's misfortunes?

 

[contedicavour]

Something like Schadenfreude ? Sorry for potential spelling mistakes.

I'm still very sceptical that all of a sudden a HDW sub would have such a long list of mishaps while the German and Italian U212A (true, it's not the U214, but the commonality of components must be very high) are just fine (a few delays notwithstanding).

I'm not sure at all that in Italy we may gain commercially from HDW's pains. Before we manage to sell some S1000 we'll have to build a prototype with the Russians, and even the Russians themselves may still priorize Amur and Lada in their export efforts. Our country has the credibility to sell surface vessels ranging from the STOVL aircraft carrier to the OPVH, but in subs we are soooo behind... we haven't exported any since WW2.

cheers

 

[fantasma]

Some more details:
-As for the excessive roll of the ssk happens in certain rough see conditions waves of 3meters in height and 56 meters length..north Atlantic see conditions not usual to seas like Mediterranean or even more to the Aegean..
-Noise to the low frequences which maybe comes from the propeller and according to Navy;s circles this problem is very serious..for this issue there is a study of the University of Hamburg saying that this problem cannot be solved
-Disfunction of some filters of the AIP system which secures the purity of the hydrogen to 99,999%..if this persentage is not achieved then the water temperature that comes out from the fuel cells (PEM-FC) rises with inevitable consequences to the observability and surviveability of the SSK..the Greek goverment is still under negotiations with HDW in order to solve the problems and accept the boat..

 

[Waylander]

Schadenfreude is right.

I don't think HDW would like to tell me anything if I just go there and ask.