F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

A

Aussie Digger

Guest
By the way, all the cost figures being bantered around by people, including yourself, for the F-22 appear to be based upon the current production run which are all for the USAF.

F-22s after the current 185 units (post Raptor AFA 4185) are, according to the outgoing F-22 Program Director, going to have a unit flyaway cost of US$116 million in 'then year' dollars. That will be around FY2012 dollars.

How much do you estimate a CTOL JSF will cost in FY2012 (if they are selling then)?

Would appreciate seeing your estimates of the unit flyaway and unit procurement costs that you think Australia would be paying for the JSF and your basis for such estimates.

Finally, in your view, what is so wrong with wanting the best for our fighting men and women? What is your aversion to Australia continuing to have the meanest dog on the block when it comes to air power?



:)
I have no idea how much the JSF will eventually cost, but even at $50-60m cheaper per airplane, it's pretty hard to go past, IMHO.

Particularly given the F-22's speciality. Yes it can drop SDB's and possibly GBU-39 JDAM's. Otherwise it's a pure air to air fighter and Australia needs more than that.

I would be more than happy for a combined F-22A/F-35A fleet, but our budget won't stretch that far . I have no aversion to having the best capability on the block, but I DO have a severe aversion to getting limited quantities of whatever capability. An ability to conduct concurrent operations are every bit as important as this in my book.

I have noticed over the years that Dr KOPP often refers to a lack of capability to conduct concurrent operations (usually over the NW shelf area) WRT our A330 tanker and Wedgetail purchases. I don't ever recall him discussing our limitations in this area if we had only 2x sqn's of F-22's as our SOLE air combat capability...

We need 4 fighter squadrons, plus an OCU to even ATTEMPT to cover all of RAAF's responsibilities and if we went down the F-22 path, there is simply no chance that we could afford more than 2 Sqn's worth.

I have no doubt the Project director says the post 183 (all that's funded IIRC) F-22 will be cheaper at US$116m per aircraft. He no doubt wants to keep his job!!!

Unfortunately the F-22 has NEVER been that cheap. It is in full rate production now and though the airframe cost has been as high as $185m each, it is currently remaining at $175m each.

Even IF the JSF cost as much as US$94m per aircraft that's still an $81m saving per aircraft which equals: FAR more platforms...
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Plus the last F-22A was bought in the FY2007 budget. No more are expected to be built. The earliest Australia could buy F-22As will be in America's FY2008 budget, with no American aircraft expected to be ordered, the price will not drop to $120 million. If Australia's intentions are to buy one or two squadrons, that number will be less than what America bought in FY2007, suggesting a higher price, possibly $200 million each. And I'm talking about American dollars, not Australian dollars.

With the Democrats taking over the House and Senate, no one expects them to spend more on acquisitions than the Republicans. No one.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I have no doubt the Project director says the post 183 (all that's funded IIRC) F-22 will be cheaper at US$116m per aircraft. He no doubt wants to keep his job!!!

Unfortunately the F-22 has NEVER been that cheap. It is in full rate production now and though the airframe cost has been as high as $185m each, it is currently remaining at $175m each.

Even IF the JSF cost as much as US$94m per aircraft that's still an $81m saving per aircraft which equals: FAR more platforms...
I believe the $116mn figure is ex-factory flyaway price, & is ca 10% less than the current price, of between $120 mn & $130 mn. But that isn't the same as the USAF acquisition cost, which is much higher. It's currently running at ca $170 mn per airframe, IIRC, including spares, spare engines, & other costs which depend on numbers of airframes, but excluding fixed costs. The USAF acquisition cost may be taken as the baseline for any foreign purchase (if the export was removed): i.e. foreign purchasers would have to budget that, PLUS the one-off costs of inducting a new type into service. Probably at least $200mn total unit price.

The quoted JSF price is the acquisition, not ex-factory flyaway, cost, but isn't comparable since -
1) it's a forecast, not an actual price - and so far it's kept going up.
2) it includes a forecast of inflation between now & when bought, which raises it relative to the current F-22 price.
You'll notice that these modifiers tend to work in opposite directions. But we do not yet know (& won't for several years) the eventual size of each modifier.
 

beleg

New Member
We need 4 fighter squadrons, plus an OCU to even ATTEMPT to cover all of RAAF's responsibilities and if we went down the F-22 path, there is simply no chance that we could afford more than 2 Sqn's worth.
Exactly. I think this is the main point!

I think what most people somehow ignore is actually a basic fact. An airforce needs a fixed amount of aircraft to do peace time duties. No matter how advanced or superior an aircraft is , if you cant afford the required quantities to do your job, then there is no sense buying that aircraft.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
IF we went with the F-22 we would have to run a dual aircraft fleet.

40 F-22's and 60-80 cheap workhorse aircraft for peace time duties. That gives us the set amount of aircraft and still have the high end capabilities of the F-22.

Again the A-10 would be a good workhorse. Only problem is that there are no brand new cheap aircraft that have decent range. Cheap equals small and short ranged so second hand is the only way to go.

Super Hornet, Gripen, Eurofighter and even the F-16 are all far too expensive to be cheap workhorse aircraft to make up numbers. The only cheap aircraft with ok range are turboprop aircraft and these have little combat capabilty.

A basic F-16 without the add-ons would be ok. With external fuel tanks its range is acceptable.

40 F-22's and 80 F-16's. Thats an impressive High-Low combat mix.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
hmm, the whole point of the JSF was to create a single aircraft fleet, these suggestions miss the whole RAAF task
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
IF we went with the F-22 we would have to run a dual aircraft fleet.

40 F-22's and 60-80 cheap workhorse aircraft for peace time duties. That gives us the set amount of aircraft and still have the high end capabilities of the F-22.

Again the A-10 would be a good workhorse. Only problem is that there are no brand new cheap aircraft that have decent range. Cheap equals small and short ranged so second hand is the only way to go.

Super Hornet, Gripen, Eurofighter and even the F-16 are all far too expensive to be cheap workhorse aircraft to make up numbers. The only cheap aircraft with ok range are turboprop aircraft and these have little combat capabilty.

A basic F-16 without the add-ons would be ok. With external fuel tanks its range is acceptable.

40 F-22's and 80 F-16's. Thats an impressive High-Low combat mix.
The RAAF rejected the F-16 in the early 80's in favour of the F/A-18. Why on Earth would we want to go BACK to it?

Our current F/A-18A/B HUG's are a very capable multi-role fighter and there are few F-16's around that provide much better capability. Particularly once the Phase 2.3/2.4 - EW/targetting pod upgrades are completed.

We'd be better off extending the life of these aircraft due to already possessing the support/training infrastructure and RAAF corporate knowledge of the platform.

Plus we will ALWAYS require a maritime strike aircraft and F-22 cannot conduct this role except via SDB. It cannot carry an ASM. F-16's are not generally used in this role either, but the F/A-18 IS.

Anyhoo, as Icelord pointed out, such a plan rules out RAAF's desire for a single aircraft type fleet.

If that were a consideration, we could save significant money now and consolidate on a Super Hornet fleet, retire the F-111 immediately, forgoe the remaining Hornet upgrades and introduced new build SH's in-service within 2 years. This plan would save the $3.5b that would go on the existing Hornet CBR program and give us roughly $20b for the new air combat capability.

A small F-22A purchase ("Silver Bullet") force could then be acquired (again assuming the US will even sell it to us, an uncertain proposition at BEST) and we'd have all the capability we'd ever likely need.

RAAF however is not interested in such an option. It wants 100 fighters of a single type. It wants them all to be stealthy and to be capable of the full range of Tactical Fighter operations, not just A2A and limited strike.

As such there's only 1 fighter out there that can provide this. This little "bad boy"...
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Amen to that.

F22 is not available and too expensive. This leave only one state of the art contender. The only other option I can see is the plan B bridging aircraft if required. In any case we still end up with the JSF.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
The RAAF rejected the F-16 in the early 80's in favour of the F/A-18. Why on Earth would we want to go BACK to it?
The F/A-18 was purchased to be a front line fighter in a High-High combat mix.

F-16's if purchased now would be the "low" portion of a High-Low combat mix with the F-22 being the high portion.

Also the F-16 20 years ago would have none of the capabilities Australia required, remember the F-16 was a cheap light fighter, with the F-15 being the expensive front line aircraft. However the current F-16's are far more advanced than the current hornets.

A current block 52 F-16 would eliminate a 1980's F-15 with ease. Funny how the F-16 was meant to be far inferior to the F-15 but it now more capable the original aircraft it flew next to.

After saying that the F-22 is too expensive to be used for a single aircraft fleet. It seems no one here believes Australia will accept having two aircraft in a high-low combat mix.

The JSF is now becoming too expensive for a single aircraft fleet. If we proceed, the JSF will end up sucking alot of money out of other area's.

Australia could buy 100 Super Hornets now and be within budget. The classic hornets wont have to be rebarreled either, so a fair saving on that as well as training. If the Superhornet is bought in small numbers as a crossover aircraft we might as well go the whole way and buy our 100 aircraft.

The US Navy will be getting a UCAV down the track and it is highly likely that control will be intergrated into the Super Hornets. That could give Australia a good strike capability in the future.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The F/A-18 was purchased to be a front line fighter in a High-High combat mix.

F-16's if purchased now would be the "low" portion of a High-Low combat mix with the F-22 being the high portion.

Also the F-16 20 years ago would have none of the capabilities Australia required, remember the F-16 was a cheap light fighter, with the F-15 being the expensive front line aircraft. However the current F-16's are far more advanced than the current hornets.

A current block 52 F-16 would eliminate a 1980's F-15 with ease. Funny how the F-16 was meant to be far inferior to the F-15 but it now more capable the original aircraft it flew next to.

After saying that the F-22 is too expensive to be used for a single aircraft fleet. It seems no one here believes Australia will accept having two aircraft in a high-low combat mix.

The JSF is now becoming too expensive for a single aircraft fleet. If we proceed, the JSF will end up sucking alot of money out of other area's.

Australia could buy 100 Super Hornets now and be within budget. The classic hornets wont have to be rebarreled either, so a fair saving on that as well as training. If the Superhornet is bought in small numbers as a crossover aircraft we might as well go the whole way and buy our 100 aircraft.

The US Navy will be getting a UCAV down the track and it is highly likely that control will be intergrated into the Super Hornets. That could give Australia a good strike capability in the future.
The UAE F-16E Block 60 Falcon is the only F-16 variant that is more advanced in any meaningful way than RAAF's F/A-18A/B Phase 2.2 HUG Hornets. ( As one example of this, even Block 52's have only "mono-chromatic" displays. RAAF's Hornets are in the process of gettting "full colour" displays and quite a few have already been upgraded with these). The 2.2 version of HUG is equivalent to the F-16 Block 52+ variant, if you look at the avionics specs and weapons capabilities.

It's pointless comparing a new-build 2006 F-16 to a 1980's F-15. Compare a Block 52 with a Singaporean F-15SG if you really want to see how their capability stacks up, ie: new build v new build...

The Phase 2.3/2.4 version of the RAAF Hornet as I said earlier, will improve the targetting and EWSP capability of the Hornet to levels equal or beyond that of any F-16 variant, bar possibly the Block 60.

RAAF F/A-18's (like their USN "cousins") have always been HARM capable, it's just we don't operate the weapon. F-16's required a dedicated Wild Weasel variant to become so.

The fact is that no current generation F-16 variant is cheap and RAAF would not accept "cheap" 2nd hand variants (even if MLU'd). What would be the point of accepting a lower capability fighter than one we already operate, even as part of a "tiered" air combat capability??? Continuing with upgraded Hornets, which at least equal, if not exceed the capability of most F-16's is a far more cost effective option...

IF a 2 tier force were to be considered, I would guess that it would be a Super Hornet/JSF mix, not an F-22 and anything else mix...
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
latest Australian Aviation

Defence Update by Paul Caldwell - Australian Aviation, December 2006

Australian Aviation’s November 2006 article on the Hornet Centre Barrel program raises a few red flags.
Firstly, there’s no doubt the F/A-18 Hornet has served Australia well in the two decades it’s been in service. It is the first true multirole jet aircraft to be operated by the RAAF, being equally adept in the strike or fighter roles. Pilots pretty much universally like and respect the aircraft for its manoeuvrability, robust construction and redundancy of systems, while its maintenance and engineering staff appreciate its ability to self-diagnose and enjoy the ease of access to critical systems.
However, the Hornet is not a dogfighter in the class of, say, the F-15. And, it will never, no matter how many tankers or support aircraft you back it up with, be a strike aircraft in the class of the F-111C. It’s 70 or 80 per cent of both – a true blue collar toiler, but not what you’d put in the ‘top tier’ of any one discipline.
Some industry commentators (and more than a few current aircrews) say Australia is selling itself short by upgrading the Hornet now before “settling” for the JSF next decade, when there are arguably better alternatives available now. They question why we should continue to accept the label of “blue collar air force” while the government racks up budget surplus after surplus, year after year.
“We need the best, because our guys are the best, and they deserve the best,” one former pilot commented recently, hinting that the JSF, although perhaps the 21st century equivalent of the F/A-18, certainly isn’t what he would call “the best.”
Although the program is well down the road and has been, apart from the decision to acquire the ALR-2002 EW kit, on the whole quite successful, many observers openly question the value for money of the Hornet Upgrade Program (HUG).
They say all it is doing is reconstituting an ageing aircraft rather than restoring the RAAF as the regional capability benchmark. The ADF counters by saying HUG will restore the F/A-18’s capability to a more relevant regional level until the F-35 comes online, due from 2014.
These debates are never simple, and there are some very informed minds inside and outside Defence working the issue. But in simple terms the costs in heading down the present track are hard to see past, or around for that matter: $16 billion for the JSF, plus another $3.5 billion for HUG, leaving very little change out of $20 billion (and that’s in present day dollars). That sort of money certainly buys a lot of alternatives, from the $80 million F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to the $200+ million F-22A Raptor.
The Super Hornet is everything the RAAF’s current Hornet is striving to, and yet, will never be. It will always carry more, carry it further, will have better networking and sensors, and will last another 20 or more years. However, can we honestly say it will be a ‘day one’ relevant fighter in the year 2025? Probably not is the likely answer.
But the more information that comes out about the F-22 Raptor, the more impressive its capabilities seem, and perhaps more importantly, the greater its future potential.
It’s probably unbeatable in the air-to-air arena, but it’s not what you would call a multirole fighter ... yet. But regardless of how many the USAF ends up getting, (although more than the meagre 183 currently on order is not out of the question), you can bet the true capabilities of the jet will be exploited fully through continuous upgrades in the years and decades to come.
The F-22 is not the sole solution to the F/A-18 and F-111 replacement conundrum, but it deserves more consideration than it is currently receiving, at least as far as the public debate goes anyway – one suspects there are people in senior positions in the RAAF and DMO keeping their ears very close to the ground on progress with the F-22.
The F-111 has only ever been used ‘operationally’ once by the RAAF, and then ostensibly in a reconnaissance capacity during the dark days of the Timor crisis in
1999. But they have provided Australia with arguably the most potent conventional deterrent we could ever have wished for during a period of political instability in our region. Now, the F-22, also with a controversial gestation behind it, has the potential to have the same effect, whereas few would argue the F-35 ever will. Following the F-35-only path means we forego such a ‘big stick’ insurance policy like that provided by the F-111, regardless of the likelihood of its potential future use.
The US Congress’s decision in October to not make the F-22 available to foreign operators can only be taken at face value, but one suspects the result would be a different one if a formal government to government or Prime Minister to President approach was to be made.
And funny that we have multiple transport aircraft types (C-17 to Hercules to Caribou) and multiple helicopter types to suit different missions, but that the one-size-fits-all model is being adopted for the fast jet force – arguably the ADF’s most vital capability.
But for now the politics of the fighter debate means little official deviation from the F-35 line.


Hmmm...
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Interesting thoughts, the only thing I would say is that most of the $3.5b has already been spent on the HUG, has it not???

And there's still no getting around the fact that the F-22 cannot currently be bought by anyone, except the US...
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting thoughts, the only thing I would say is that most of the $3.5b has already been spent on the HUG, has it not???

And there's still no getting around the fact that the F-22 cannot currently be bought by anyone, except the US...
I would guess that roughly 60% of the HUG money has been spent or committed to date, and we're probably committed to another few hundred million for ALR-67(v)3 (Phase 2.3), Litening AT (2.4) and the rest of HUG 2.2 at this time. I've been told and have read that Phase 3.2 will cost about $800m.

Re F-22, the statement that it's not available for sale is actually not strictly correct. I've been doing some reading and can actually verify what Occum said a couple of days ago, i.e. that Congress has only legislated that US taxpayer's money is not allowed to be spent on supporting foreign sales efforts, i.e. FMS campaigns. However, if a 'suitable' customer were to come in off the street, so to speak, the result may be somewhat different, as there is no actual law stating the F-22 is not for foreign sale. Apparently Japan is very actively lobbying for the jet, and I think Paul's observation that a govt to govt or a PM to President approach would prove to be more positive mauy be close to the mark.

I know others have speculated that foreign customers would get a down-specced version of the F-22 if it were to be exported, however I'm not qualified to comment on whether this is correct or not - perhaps Occum can elaborate?

I also like Paul's suggestion that a multi-tiered solution is appropriate for helo and transport ops, but only a single-tiered one should be considered for the fighter/strike force. I would suggest a two-tiered hi/lo force would be far more suitable for the RAAF's needs. While it may cost a little ore to establish and support, it minimises risk and potentially allows the RAAF to have that top-end capability I think it needs (e.g. F-22) while still having suitable numbers of aircraft to support sustained operations if required.

If the F-35 does slip beyond an IOC of 2015, then I suspect the Super Hornet may quickly come into focus, and we may end up with, say, 36 F-22s and up to 64 Super Hornets - I just hope we find out sooner rather than later so we don't have to fund too many centre-barrels. Conversely, if the F-35 stays on track, then a mix of 24 F-22s and 64 F-35s may just do the trick and may even come in under the $16bn we've outlayed.

Cheers

Magoo
 
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rjmaz1

New Member
Magoo there is no point going a two-tiered hi/lo with the JSF and F-22.

Firstly the JSF is not a low capability.

Secondly the JSF has 3/4 the capabilities of the F-22 at 3/4 of the price. The saving of going with say 40 JSF and 40 F-22's compared to 80 F-22's would not be much once you take into the extra cost of running two aircraft types. So by going with the JSF and F-22 we would only get a handfull of extra aircraft compared to going with a F-22 only force.

The JSF and F-22 is a High-Very high force structure.

If we wanted to have the F-22 as the "High" capability and use the "low" aircraft to make up the numbers, then the low end aircraft must cost less than half the price of the F-22.

This rules out the JSF being the low option. Superhornet would also be too expensive to be considered cheap enough to make up numbers. Probably the only western aircraft cheap enough would be the Gripen and F-16. Out of those aircraft we would go with the F-16 and strap fuel tanks onto it giving it respectable range to support sustained operations.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Magoo there is no point going a two-tiered hi/lo with the JSF and F-22.

Firstly the JSF is not a low capability.
It is compared to the F-22 - hi/lo can mean really hi/hi as well. One is higher than the other, and in RAAF service, one can be the top end interceptor, day one fighter, and SAM killer, while the JSF can then take over the 'dirty work' from day two while the F-22 flies OCA/CAP. They're a perfect compliment to each other, and this is how the USAF will use them.

rjmaz1 said:
Secondly the JSF has 3/4 the capabilities of the F-22 at 3/4 of the price. The saving of going with say 40 JSF and 40 F-22's compared to 80 F-22's would not be much once you take into the extra cost of running two aircraft types. So by going with the JSF and F-22 we would only get a handfull of extra aircraft compared to going with a F-22 only force.
When it comes to flying OCA and taking out teen series SAMs, I'd say the F-22 is probably 2 or 3 times more effective than the F-35. Imagine an F-22 flying at 60,000 feet and Mach 1.6 with six AMRAAMs or six SDBs - nothing will see it let alone get a shot off at it. The F-35 just can't do this!

rjmaz1 said:
If we wanted to have the F-22 as the "High" capability and use the "low" aircraft to make up the numbers, then the low end aircraft must cost less than half the price of the F-22.

This rules out the JSF being the low option.
Where is this rule written??? Hi/lo doesn't mean hi cost/low cost, nor does it mean hi capability/lo capability. It means hi end employment/low end employment. It doesn't mean you restrict the F-35 to the low end stuff only - it will still have the ability to perform much of the day two onwards hi end stuff too. Plus the F-22 will also have the capability later on to perform alot of the strike and ISR missions in conjunction with the F-35. Imagine a scenario of a couple of F-35s as the standoff shooters, and one or two high flying F-22s as the network nodes and targetters!!! Sounds awesome to me!

rjmaz1 said:
Superhornet would also be too expensive to be considered cheap enough to make up numbers. Probably the only western aircraft cheap enough would be the Gripen and F-16. Out of those aircraft we would go with the F-16 and strap fuel tanks onto it giving it respectable range to support sustained operations.
Sources re Super Hornet costs? What do you think a Super Hornet costs to acquire and then sustain compared to an F-16 B50/52 or a Gripen C/D? There'd be little if anything in it, plus the Super would be much cheaper to integrate into the RAAF's exisitng structure compared to the other two. And once you start strapping, what was it, five tanks (?) on to an F-16, you can forget about carrying much else of any value. And what, no A-10s???
:eek:nfloorl:

Sorry, but seriously, the F-16 and the Gripen wont be relevant in a regional or coalition sense in 25 years, the Super Hornet might be, but the F-22 and JSF will be, and that's how we should be thinking.

Cheers

Magoo
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
RAAF will get a "2" tiered force, once UCAV's become feasible, operationally IMHO.

Until then we will have JSF's as our sole air combat aircraft, unless the program goes "belly up", Liberals get voted out and Labour voted in AND they stick to their "F-22" policy AND the US decides to allow us to buy it AND we can actually AFFORD to buy it in meaningful numbers.

There's a LOT of "ands" in these arguments and by far the most likely scenario (particular with the way defence acquisitions have been going lately) is that RAAF will get exactly what it wants.

That is: 100x JSF's...
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Hehe. The party out of power always has some novel ideas. From a Danish perspective the Social Democrats has proposed in the past week to have a look at attack helos instead of the JSF, as they were cheaper per platform, and were able to provide CAS just like fixed wing. They used examples from Afghanistan.

Unfortunately they left out the fact that most CAS support has been provided by fighters or strat bombers as they have the persistence, response time, etc., and don't necessarily need to be based close in the field.

Not based in reality. They just needed to be able to present an "alternative".

Just a little JSF flavour from the other side of the planet. ;)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Hi Magoo, etc. al. Could you post the link on the F-22A prohibition being only for support of foreign sales orders?

I do remember reading an article from AW & ST that quoted an USAF general that the US was not currently interested in selling any F-22s to other nations.

Right now I'm wading through the US Code the see what the applicable laws are for foreign arms sales. It gets interesting since some of the more queer prohibitions pop up no in the Code but in appropriations bills. I :shudder to think what might get added into whatever omnibus spending bill will be needed to keep the gov't funded this year...

Incidentally, the amendment Rep. Obey introduced to block foreign purchase of the F-22 was dated from 1997, I'm working to see if that was written into law as well.

-Cheers
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There is no doubting a mix of JSF/F-22 would be awesome for the RAAF, hell, no one would be game enough to take them on, especially in this region, but thats the thing. This region(asia pacific) does not have high numbers of Fighter Aircraft, India will in a few years, but they only would attack us if we bowled underarm in a cricket match:rolleyes:

The regions airforces will be recieving a few, make it a few Su-27s and variants, but not enough to scare our boys.
The F-22 will not, no matter how much beazely jumps up and down and crys for it, not be making the RAAF within the next 15 years. If the USAF increase their order from 183(they serious) then the price would obviously go down, but not to an acceptable level, where as the JSF is built in larger numbers, with many Euro nations looking at it instead of the Typhoon, then we will be getting a better deal for our investment, which is a hell of a lot, and we don't go doing that for something that won't be built. For the Government and the DOD to add more funds to the project, some form of guarantee would be needed that they would be built, no matter what the US congress says, if the worse situation is made, that congress axes support and pulls out, then it will be more expensive, but it will more then likely still be built, for international clients, and the US would be the major loser of any such plan, as everyone else would have a fully capable Multirole fighter, and they would have their aging Super hornets, F-16s and shiny new F-22s by the time the worlds orders are complete. Plus the Superhornets would need life extensions since no F-35B.

Its not going to happen really, the JSF will be built, and it will be coming to Australia, i do agree that a sole Fighter is not good, and they may look at any other proposals, but i can say that the Gripen is not effective enough for RAAF requirments, as it is very good for Sweden, but over here, under Australia's Conditions, i don't see it lasting, and its a short range interceptor really, purely for Defence of Neutral sweden. South Africa has it, and why i don't know, it was most likely cheaper then others, but here it would not be such a wise move, so expect it to be in the ALP election plans:D
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The regions airforces will be recieving a few, make it a few Su-27s and variants, but not enough to scare our boys.
Sources??? Seen China's Sukhoi numbers lately??? Look, we could go round and round in circles about who has what, or who's going to have what in the future, but only a fool plans the next 25 to 30 years based on what they or the competition has now or is likely to have in the next five years.

icelord said:
The F-22 will not, no matter how much beazely jumps up and down and crys for it, not be making the RAAF within the next 15 years.
But it's the Opposition's job to provide opposition points of view, so best to leave Labor and Co out of this. And don't be so sure about what we will and won't have in the next 15 years - all it would take is an 18 month to two year slip in the F-35, and we might have a whole new ball game.

icelord said:
If the USAF increase their order from 183(they serious) then the price would obviously go down, but not to an acceptable level
Again, sources? What's an acceptable level? What's the current price? What will the price of airframe number 184 be? You need to know these things to be able to sustain such an argument.

icelord said:
...where as the JSF is built in larger numbers, with many Euro nations looking at it instead of the Typhoon, then we will be getting a better deal for our investment, which is a hell of a lot, and we don't go doing that for something that won't be built.
Hang on, what won't be built? The F-22 is guaranteed 183 airframes and I suspect, now tat Rumsfeld's gone, a considerable amount more - perhaps even the 380 the USAF says it wants.

icelord said:
For the Government and the DOD to add more funds to the project, some form of guarantee would be needed that they would be built, no matter what the US congress says, if the worse situation is made, that congress axes support and pulls out, then it will be more expensive, but it will more then likely still be built, for international clients, and the US would be the major loser of any such plan, as everyone else would have a fully capable Multirole fighter, and they would have their aging Super hornets, F-16s and shiny new F-22s by the time the worlds orders are complete.
That has to be the longest sentence in the world...ever! But ok...

Who said anything about adding more funds? Not me. I suggest we would probably be able to get 24 F-22s in 2010-2012 and 64 F-35s in 2013-2017 for close to the current budget, but even if we went over a billion or two, wouldn't a force mix like that be worth it?

If Congress "pulls out" of the F-22, then neither we nor anyone sle will begetting them, so what's the problem? Even with your worse case scenario, there'll still be 183 of them in the USAF and therefore, a sufficient level of corporate knowledge, support and spares to sustain 24 to 36 F-22s here.

First you said that no one is buying Sukhois in large numbers, and now you're saying "everyone else will have their shiny new fighters"! Who is "everyone else" and what are the "shiny new fighters"?

Magoo
 
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