Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) update

[Ramjetmissile]

Recent events indicate otherwise. News on planned purchase of LPD/LSD is out and this was announce by MAF Chief himself. Two more frigates are currently under intense negotiation and expect to have the contract sign by next year. Looks like the Navy benefits a lot by having an Admiral at the MAF helm.

Would like to stress that in the past there were plenty of intentions and plans claimed by the malaysian authority to be in the mist of discussion and negotiation. Disappointingly, it seems that there are no concluded procurement. i.e. Rookivalk Attack Helicopter, Ceasar Arty System, F-18 upgrade etc.Hope that the naval procurement will eventually succeed. The 6 Stealth frigates from singapore seems to be intimidating enough, the congested Strait of malacca and singapore will only escalate the difficulty in making quick detection and identification.

 

[mmmbop]

Malaysia had been in a shopping spree during 2002-2003..much of the allocated budget went there.the recent 2007 budget saw an increase up to RM6 bil but largely for the preparation of incoming new assets starting next year namely Su-30MKM and PT91M.there's lots of hype regarding auxialliary ship (probably LPD) and Frigate batch 2 but all remains to be seen

 

[renjer]

Malaysia aim for a force of 10 advance FFG. maybe they'll upgrade some of those Mekos to carry a role of the mini FFG.

Awang, I like the way you think. With 2 Kasturis, 2 Lekius and 6 Kedahs we are almost there in terms of numbers. I don't see the Kedahs going too far upgrade-wise but we might see it in subsequent batches of the NGPV project. It will be an interesting wait for the Sabah(?) class.

 

[kaybee]

Awang, I like the way you think. With 2 Kasturis, 2 Lekius and 6 Kedahs we are almost there in terms of numbers. I don't see the Kedahs going too far upgrade-wise but we might see it in subsequent batches of the NGPV project. It will be an interesting wait for the Sabah(?) class.

10 ships from mixture of FFG, FSG and OPV would not be in the same class as true 10 ships FFG. The trend is to shift up the class rather than shifting down. Corvettes used to be around 1K tons displacement or less but now we have 1.6K tons offshore patrol corvettes, same size as a light frigate. We should expect future frigate displacement to be in 2K-4K tons range if not bigger like Spanish F100 that approaches the size of a destroyer.

Kedah-class is a very good ship if fully equipped but I won't equate it to a latest frigate in term of sensors, firepower and survivability. But having 27 of them, fully equipped, would be awesome!

 

[renjer]

10 ships from mixture of FFG, FSG and OPV would not be in the same class as true 10 ships FFG.

I agree.

The trend is to shift up the class rather than shifting down. Corvettes used to be around 1K tons displacement or less but now we have 1.6K tons offshore patrol corvettes, same size as a light frigate. We should expect future frigate displacement to be in 2K-4K tons range if not bigger like Spanish F100 that approaches the size of a destroyer.

This is a trend. It reflects the security environment that many European navies expect to face in a Post-Cold War world. It is not necessarily the environment in which the RMN will be operating. As a guide, the Royal Navy of Sweden and the Baltic Sea is probably a better indicator of the RMN's future.

Kedah-class is a very good ship if fully equipped but I won't equate it to a latest frigate in term of sensors, firepower and survivability.

Neither would I.

But having 27 of them, fully equipped, would be awesome!

This has always been the RMN's plan. With each order batch progressively redesigned and upgraded to suit the current needs. There has been some parties that have called for the NGPV project to be cancelled in light of the mismanagement problems at PSC-ND. This is short-sighted. When there is mismanagement you change the management. There is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Subangite]

This has always been the RMN's plan. With each order batch progressively redesigned and upgraded to suit the current needs. There has been some parties that have called for the NGPV project to be cancelled in light of the mismanagement problems at PSC-ND. This is short-sighted. When there is mismanagement you change the management. There is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Janes recently reported that the SAN recieved their 4 MekoA200 frigates for $1.2 Billion, the SAN are very pleased with their ships, they reportedly have performed well, with the SAN about to order more ships.

From what I gather these SAN frigates are of similar design to the Kedah class OPV, the Kedah class being 20% less smaller in size and less capable. Its not value for money, overall the RMN has spent more than the SAN for ships less capable, with only 2 conditionally delivered. In hindsight the cause was noble, to create a local industrial ship building capability but in terms of value for tax ringgits, money would have been better spent if the ship building was left in Germany.

Management was changed but I hope such a folly does not get repeated in future. Its costly for the nation, especially one like Malaysia which has a small defence budget.

 

[contedicavour]

Janes recently reported that the SAN recieved their 4 MekoA200 frigates for $1.2 Billion, the SAN are very pleased with their ships, they reportedly have performed well, with the SAN about to order more ships.

From what I gather these SAN frigates are of similar design to the Kedah class OPV, the Kedah class being 20% less smaller in size and less capable. Its not value for money, overall the RMN has spent more than the SAN for ships less capable, with only 2 conditionally delivered. In hindsight the cause was noble, to create a local industrial ship building capability but in terms of value for tax ringgits, money would have been better spent if the ship building was left in Germany.

Management was changed but I hope such a folly does not get repeated in future. Its costly for the nation, especially one like Malaysia which has a small defence budget.

Fully agree with you. A better deal might have included "build for export to other Asian countries" in a joint venture with the Meko consortium... with potential customers in the Philippines, Thailand, why not Indonesia. Or otherwise, an offset deal allowing construction in Germany but in exchange investment in local defence industry.

cheers

 

[kaybee]

From what I gather these SAN frigates are of similar design to the Kedah class OPV, the Kedah class being 20% less smaller in size and less capable. Its not value for money, overall the RMN has spent more than the SAN for ships less capable, with only 2 conditionally delivered. In hindsight the cause was noble, to create a local industrial ship building capability but in terms of value for tax ringgits, money would have been better spent if the ship building was left in Germany.

If you're able to read TEMPUR article on NGPV, you'll understand why it cost so much. The govn actually paid for the right of design for MEKO 100 and PSC-ND are able to change the design at will depending on future RMN need. Not only that, the ToT also includes the COSYS 110 M1 system integration and many others that I'm unable to recall as I do not have the mag besides me. The ship is also fully automated and equipped with full sensors and weapon system suites short of the weapon launchers (FFBNW concept). Looking at the original plan to acquire 27 of this ship, purchasing the design make good sense and if that includes right to design, build and sell to other countries is even better. I do not know about the later as it was not mentioned in the article. Since we already purchased this right, I fully support if the govn want to continue with this program as subsequent ships would cost much less.

 

[Subangite]

If you're able to read TEMPUR article on NGPV, you'll understand why it cost so much. The govn actually paid for the right of design for MEKO 100 and PSC-ND are able to change the design at will depending on future RMN need. Not only that, the ToT also includes the COSYS 110 M1 system integration and many others that I'm unable to recall as I do not have the mag besides me. The ship is also fully automated and equipped with full sensors and weapon system suites short of the weapon launchers (FFBNW concept). Looking at the original plan to acquire 27 of this ship, purchasing the design make good sense and if that includes right to design, build and sell to other countries is even better. I do not know about the later as it was not mentioned in the article. Since we already purchased this right, I fully support if the govn want to continue with this program as subsequent ships would cost much less.

Sorry I don't have the Tempur magazine, I'm in Australia, in terms of defence magazines I subscribe to Janes Defence weekly. I'm just noting the differences here, whilst Tempur outlines how great the Kedah class OPV's are, in terms of automation, sensors, the SAN valour stealth frigates are comparable (Valour only being 20% larger than Kedah) in terms of efficiency and automation since they are of similar MEKO design with a major difference, the fact still remains that the difference being that RMN Kedah class is only lightly armed in comparison to the Valour class frigates of the SAN. Whilsts the Kedah class is able to be upgraded is missing the point. What has actually been paid now and what has been delivered to the RMN and compare this with the experience of SAN with their MEKO A200 frigates.

The point is this, the Kedah class has costed much more than the more vastly capable SAN Valour class stealth frigates, the SAN ships are equiped with Umkhonto missiles, MM40 Exocet block2 missiles, Torpedoes, Otobreda 76 mm gun. The RMN in comparison have paid much more than the SAN for their Kedah class OPV ships that are just armed with only 1 x Oto Melara 76/62 as its most lethal weapon, the other only weapon is an Oto Melara/Mauser 30mm short-range gun in the aft!!!! Sure they can be upgraded, but thats a different expenditure, more costs involved. All this coupled with only 2 of the Kedah class having been delivered and delivery extremely late and behind schedule, these ships further more are conditionally accepted because it did not meet RMN specifications.

Anyways I'm not saying the project should be abandoned, far from it. Too much valuable money has been spent on the Kedah class for it to be scrapped. But lets face it, its not exactly value for money with this batch. Who knows when all will be completed, or if the full batch of 26-27 will actually be met. The RMN could have gotten Valour class frigates for less, without any technical and quality problems, on time and much more importantly on budget! Last I heard the PSC-ND requested RM 1.8 Billion to complete the vessels, and currently they are not all completed yet, only 2 so far. When the SAN is about to order more Frigates. Realisitically can the RMN on such a limited budget afford such follies? Perhaps in hindsight contedicavours suggestion would have saved an already tight and constrained Malaysian military budget, much needed funds.

 

[renjer]

I agree with all of you on the NGPV being extremely costly. However, I continue to hold the opinion that gaining the capability to produce Malaysia's own warship makes the project worthwhile. Preserving national sovereignty is difficult to cost even for the best of accountants.

 

[johngage]

Was there a proper investigation conducted regarding the mismanagement of this project? Personally, I thought that the government should have put some people behind bars for this kind of behaviour. There is no doubt that this project is important for Malaysia's defence. But any mismanagement should have been punished severely to set an example, so that it doesn't happen again in the future. Subangite is absolutely right. With RMN's tight budget, we can't afford this kind of nonsense again.

 

[kaybee]

There have been numerous calls for punishment in the local defense forums but look like that's the end of it. Life will go on with the new management team.

 

[kaybee]

The point is this, the Kedah class has costed much more than the more vastly capable SAN Valour class stealth frigates, the SAN ships are equiped with Umkhonto missiles, MM40 Exocet block2 missiles, Torpedoes, Otobreda 76 mm gun. The RMN in comparison have paid much more than the SAN for their Kedah class OPV ships that are just armed with only 1 x Oto Melara 76/62 as its most lethal weapon, the other only weapon is an Oto Melara/Mauser 30mm short-range gun in the aft!!!! Sure they can be upgraded, but thats a different expenditure, more costs involved. All this coupled with only 2 of the Kedah class having been delivered and delivery extremely late and behind schedule, these ships further more are conditionally accepted because it did not meet RMN specifications.

You're taking the cost of mismanagement into consideration. The mismanagement can happen to any projects causing cost overrun. Unfortunately the Kedah-class is the victim here. If there is no mismanagement and all 6 were delivered on time and within budget of USD1.4B, would you still says it is too expensive in comparison with 4 SAN Valour-class at USD1.2B?

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[Subangite]

You're taking the cost of mismanagement into consideration. The mismanagement can happen to any projects causing cost overrun. Unfortunately the Kedah-class is the victim here. If there is no mismanagement and all 6 were delivered on time and within budget of USD1.4B, would you still says it is too expensive in comparison with 4 SAN Valour-class at USD1.2B?

Weasel1962 presents my point precisely, the cost overruns do mean that the Kedahs are definitely more expensive (pound for pound) compared to the South African mekos. In hindsight money for would have been better spent on the frigates. This is the point I'm trying to make, the costs involved, borne by the Malaysian government towards this venture and what has been recieved by the RMN is not value for money. Its even worse when you take into the consideration that the Malaysian military has a relatively small budget. Steps haven't been achieved to rectify that such future follies won't occur, responsibility for the mismanagement has not been held accountable, no charges have been made. Can the RMN afford a repeat of this experience, at what costs to the nation?

SAN's mekos displaces at 3600+ tons with full sub-systems + CODAG. The kedahs displaces at 1,650t without gas turbines, no MM40s or RAM etc. The difference in cost is due to the non-implementation of sub-systems, different engines and overall smaller size on the Kedahs.

Agree that it is probably worth similar once you take into account the differences (ie at budgeted cost). However, the cost overruns do mean that the Kedahs are definitely more expensive (pound for pound) compared to the South African mekos.

Building ships nationally is not so much sovereignty than national pride. Nepal may never build ships but definitely still retains sovereignty.

National pride is normally not quantifiable but when certain transactions enriches a few individuals or puts national defence at risk, what is the price of national pride? Spectacular collapses of some national airlines (thankfully not yet MAS) are a prime example of how much national pride can cost.

I'm sure effectiveness is definitely more of a consideration than national pride. Paying more per Meko will end up like the F22 in US (same budget less planes). That will leave a gap in defence (If 27 was not the requirement, the RMN would not have wanted 27 otherwise) so likely budget will have to increase. The 2 new FFs could probably mean 2 less NGPVs. More budget required = less spending on other items.

There is a saying that in any transaction, you normally can obtain only 2 out of 3 choices (cheap, good or fast) so that's life.

Well said Weasel1962. Effectiveness is definately more of a consideration than matters of pride, firms like MAS, Proton and the defense sector practise rent seeking from the GOM rather than efficiency. When it comes to the defense sector, it concerns the hard earned tax payer ringgits, officials owe it to the citizens and the nation to spend this wisely on the defence contracts. It does not reflect well when mismanagement is not held responsible and accountable. That said, the Kedah class NGPV must go on, too much money has already been spent.

 

[kaybee]

Weasel1962 presents my point precisely, the cost overruns do mean that the Kedahs are definitely more expensive (pound for pound) compared to the South African mekos. In hindsight money for would have been better spent on the frigates. This is the point I'm trying to make, the costs involved, borne by the Malaysian government towards this venture and what has been recieved by the RMN is not value for money.

I do not dispute that the 1st batch of 6 ships are very expensive because of the mismanagement. I've also been criticizing this in the local defense forums. What I'm trying to determine is whether Kedah-class is value for money to begin with as compare to Valour-class, hence I need discount the mismanagement cost. For 6 ships including Meko 100 patent right, the govn would have paid $1.4B. I do not know how much the patent right cost. Due to the mismanagement, the govn now have to provide additional $500M for the rest of 4 ships. Giving that PV03 is about 60% completed while the rest still have a long way to go, and additional $500m are required to complete an equivalent of 3 ships, I would assume that each ship would cost $170m or $1B for 6 ships. Using this simplistic calculation, the patent right and other NRE cost would be about $400m. Is $170m a ship is value for money giving all the frigate-like battle system albeit armed with only 2 cannons?

Well said Weasel1962. Effectiveness is definately more of a consideration than matters of pride, firms like MAS, Proton and the defense sector practise rent seeking from the GOM rather than efficiency. When it comes to the defense sector, it concerns the hard earned tax payer ringgits, officials owe it to the citizens and the nation to spend this wisely on the defence contracts. It does not reflect well when mismanagement is not held responsible and accountable. That said, the Kedah class NGPV must go on, too much money has already been spent.

Sorry to say that this type of mismanagement affects almost every type of govn projects, not just defense. Remember Perwaja Steel? That was $1.6B down the drain!!

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Deleted

 

[Ramjetmissile]

Actually, US$170m isn't that expensive.

An Aegis DDG cost around US$1b. A horizon frigate cost about US$500m (7,000 tons). The new FREMMs were valued at between euro 2.8 to 3.5 b for the first 8 ships.

Taiwan's Kang Ding was valued at US$2.8b for 6 ships (3,500 tons CODAD).

Singapore Formidable class is probably cheaper (3,200 tons). I would est $300-400m per ship incl helo.

Sub systems aint cheap. Just read how much a SAM battery cost (radar forms a large proportion). Take into account sonar etc.

Taiwan Kang Ding Frigate shouldn't be quoted as an example. The Frigates sold to the ROC navy were way too exorbitant considering selling the ship's superstructure and some moderately sophisticated electronic defense gadgets beside this acquistion involves widespread bureaucratic corruption scandal.

The overall cost of a Formidable Class Frigate is classified. Judging from the sophistication of the entire system including navigation device,
surveillance ,integrated defence structure and system. its gonna cost for more than just $400 million a copy.In addition of the S70B Seahawk procurement, the entire monetary expenses on a single ship gonna consumed a significant chunk of the nation's defense budget.

 

[renjer]

Building ships nationally is not so much sovereignty than national pride. Nepal may never build ships but definitely still retains sovereignty.

I disagree. Central to preserving national sovereignty is the ability to defend it. Ancient civilizations like the Chinese recognize this. Their ideogram for country depicts an armed man and the area that he can defend. As a maritime nation whose halves are divided by a sea it is imperative for Malaysia to possess within its arsenal the ability to construct its own warship. Nepal is landlocked and for it shipbuilding is not necessary. Move beyond this matter of geography and we should not be surprise to find that it has some manner of a national arms industry. At the very least plans for one.

This is the point I'm trying to make, the costs involved, borne by the Malaysian government towards this venture and what has been recieved by the RMN is not value for money. Its even worse when you take into the consideration that the Malaysian military has a relatively small budget.

When it comes to the defense sector, it concerns the hard earned tax payer ringgits, officials owe it to the citizens and the nation to spend this wisely on the defence contracts. It does not reflect well when mismanagement is not held responsible and accountable.

I agree.

 

[qwerty223]

Weasel1962 presents my point precisely, the cost overruns do mean that the Kedahs are definitely more expensive (pound for pound) compared to the South African mekos. In hindsight money for would have been better spent on the frigates. This is the point I'm trying to make, the costs involved, borne by the Malaysian government towards this venture and what has been recieved by the RMN is not value for money. Its even worse when you take into the consideration that the Malaysian military has a relatively small budget. Steps haven't been achieved to rectify that such future follies won't occur, responsibility for the mismanagement has not been held accountable, no charges have been made. Can the RMN afford a repeat of this experience, at what costs to the nation?



Well said Weasel1962. Effectiveness is definately more of a consideration than matters of pride, firms like MAS, Proton and the defense sector practise rent seeking from the GOM rather than efficiency. When it comes to the defense sector, it concerns the hard earned tax payer ringgits, officials owe it to the citizens and the nation to spend this wisely on the defence contracts. It does not reflect well when mismanagement is not held responsible and accountable. That said, the Kedah class NGPV must go on, too much money has already been spent.

Dont agree at all, it is a short-sighted vision to say that. Cant say its a brilliant idea, but to gain ablility of building our own thro' every purchase is a wise idea. In the end, even althought we cant really build one of our own, but at least we can "major" repair it, if there is a need to?

Its something like: diff between to eat fish and to eat fish in the same time learning to fish.

About Tax, thats really depends on individuals. Every one have a diff political stand. That why tthe exist of policy makers. View in micro, you may think thats too much. But in macro, will it be the same? In my point of view, no doubt, our ringgit worth less while the "toys" are always costly in terms of US dollar. We need it and need more on this stage. And i m statisfied with the our pace of imporving.

Btw, cost efficiency conflict in the way you meantion always happen in budget limited country. If a car is must for you and you barely have the money to upkeep it, same thing happens to you when the car get old with problems. To throw it away? Car thrown but dont hav the money for the new one. How would you make decision then? OR to buy a Benz instead bcoz it can run for life time?

And thats why it's very strange when you keep expressing that a real "Meko A-100/200" worth more then our minisized toy. Then again, whats the logic behind to have 5~10 vessel in 30yrs which mayb the last 10yrs: 1/3retired, 1/3pre-retire, 1/3"Half-life"hulls; compare to have 30 vessels in 30yrs which hav at least 10new hulls and have a maximun chance to upgrade/re-decision of 10times in every 10yr interval, and the it is more effiency? Not even want to count in upkeep facilities cost from what we already had for small toys.