Nato sending mixed message on Afghanistan

[Grand Danois]

Since it will take generations for the tribal culture to go away, federalizing Afghanistan and perhaps Iraq, may actually be the solution to the difficulties stemming from the tribal culture of Afghanistan in particular.

Hearts and minds goes nowhere, when corruption is rife, there is no justice (even if the central govt was in ctrl), drug warlordism is part of the govt.

Decentralising may be the way forward for the average Afghani to trust and appreciate the benefits of proper governance.

 

[.pt]

Great dane,
I disagree. In Iraq at least, after fighting one winning faction and its leader will rise to power and by exercising central control trough dictatorship, peace will come, not by itself, but imposed by force. Thats my evaluation. Its sad, but it ´s the way thingswill happen.In the future, after eduction and time, soften the tribalism, then the situation can evolve. How did Saddam lasted so long?
.pt

 

[contedicavour]

I was thinking one thing : the only peaceful areas in Iraq and Afghanistan are the Kurdish north of Iraq and the Tajik north-east of Afghanistan. Both areas are virtually independent.
Handing out official wide autonomy to other areas (Shi'ite south of Iraq, the Eastern portion of Afghanistan which has always been anti-Taliban) may put in place a mechanism of rewarding peaceful areas with higher autonomy.
Otherwise I agree with .pt that chaos will follow and a dictatorship of the strongest faction will conquer power (and lose it some decades later, restarting the whole process).

cheers

 

[atilla]

kurdısh north ıraq has also trıbal system ı thınk but for tacık u are rıght sınce general dostum but was ın russıan sıde durıng afghan war ı thınk key to peace ın afganıstan ıs pakıstan and ıran but also for ıraq ıt ıs dıfferent most populatıon ın ıraq ıs well educated funy but hıghly educated more then northen part lol realy dıffıcult stıatıon every thıng mıxed up and when ıt comes to nato ıt ıs better ıf turkey and EU countrıes ıs out of that pact

 

[Rich]

Well put conte.
But my feeling is that, in Iraq, it´s probably already too late to do that. Too much spilled blood and hatred is on the loose, and i don´t think there is a chance for peace between rival groups.
.pt

I see flags of a lot of nations in this thread and I bet every one of them, at some point in history, spilled a lot more blood internally then Iraq is doing now, And, still found a way to heal afterwards. I know we Yanks did. We murdered each other by the hundreds of thousands during our own civil war and still found a way out. So dont count the Iraqis out yet.

Then again Home Sapien is basically a violent, tribal primate at his core. That goes in whatever culture he/she is currently hanging his hat in. Ive had to tip-toe thru acres of blood stained floors in my time as a Policeman in a large American city. Hell, I bet Baghdad is an improvement on a hot August Saturday night.

 

[kams]

I see flags of a lot of nations in this thread and I bet every one of them, at some point in history, spilled a lot more blood internally then Iraq is doing now, And, still found a way to heal afterwards. I know we Yanks did. We murdered each other by the hundreds of thousands during our own civil war and still found a way out. So dont count the Iraqis out yet.

Very true, so what is it these other countries have and Afghanistan/Iraq don't? A national identity? A Charismatic leader who can hold the flock together? sense of one nation? all of these?

 

[Rich]

Very true, so what is it these other countries have and Afghanistan/Iraq don't? A national identity? A Charismatic leader who can hold the flock together? sense of one nation? all of these?

The most important is probably "national interest". For instance the Kurds. The Kurds will always feel threatened by the Turks and by the Iranians. The other factions in Iraq will also figure out that "divided we fall". The western Historical equivalent would be the British during the Yank civil War, waiting patiently for any scraps left over during the fighting. We pulled together again as a nation because "it was in our interest" to do so. The biggest "interest" being external threats.

And eventually the Iraqis will figure that out as well. Especially in that region their in, with the spectre of Iranian hegemony hanging over them. Its a mistake to think Iraqi Shiites consider themselves Iranians.

Its also a mistake to go over there and try to make little Americans out of them. In that region you have to play politics according to tribal rules. You have to reach out to Tribal leadership as much as conventional Political ones.

 

[oskarm]

For Taliban, the mere fact that NATO is asking for more troops (and not getting it) is a propaganda victory. This will halp them in convincing the population of Afghanistan that Taliban is winning and more will join Taliban.

Poland is going to send about 1000 soldiers to A-stan (mech. battalion + GROM). And yes, they go there to fight and kill (quotation from a newspaper), and casulties are expected. Probably it will be a battalion from 17. Mechanized Brigade (first equipped with Rosomaks - Polish version of Patria's AMV), but there are only IFV versions, no command posts, ARV and so on.

BTW another 500 troops are being send to Lebanon (with HMMWVs, Skorpions and Rosomaks).

 

[Waylander]

I really doubt that the opinion of our people and politicians changes and that we send more combat troops into the south than we already did by sending the KSK.
I accept this decision and I don't think that other nations have the right to criticise this decision in a hard way. Normal critics are ok and necessary. The winning nations of WWII tried for decades to make on of the most pacifistic countrys of the world out of us and now our people shall forget everything they learned?
But in the end I don't think that it is the right decision.
I am frightened of the day the situation in the north reaches the same level like in the south. There are already more gunfights, RPG attacks, IEDs, etc. than ever before in the north and what if sometime we ask for help?

 

[JBodnar39]

As an American, I would like to thank all of those countries who have deployed their young men and women next to ours in bioth Afghanistan and Iraq. We are democracies, and it it is only with the will of their people that European countries deploy troops and in what numbers. We can argue all day about how many troops this countriy or that one sent, but when we come down to it in these wars in Afghan and Iraq our sons and daughters from countires cusch as England, Canada, Italy have fought and died in support of our Amercian soldiers.


Thank-you

 

[atilla]

any news about whıch countrıes wıll send troops to lebanon ????ı

 

[Grand Danois]

any news about whıch countrıes wıll send troops to lebanon ????ı

Most of the EU/NATO contributions are already there.

Land
Italy 2,500, perhaps more will be sent.
France 2,500, perhaps more will be sent.
Spain 1,100
Finland 300?
Ireland ?
China (PRC) 1,000, 240 already in place.
There are others, but unsure of who and numbers...

Naval
Germany 2,400 on 2 frigates, 1 replenishment ship, 5 FACs
Denmark 60 on 2 Flyvefisken class, perhaps + 100 on a corvette.
Norway ? on 4 Hauk class

The German and Danish sqns left Wilhelmshaven today. The Norwegians should already be in Toulon.


Edit: Btw, Wiki link with a better and more complete overview.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unifil#Reinforcements

 

[Waylander]

There are two replenishment ships in the german flotilla.

I thought the NATO designation for our smaller "Flugkörperschnellboote" is PCG?

 

[Grand Danois]

There are two replenishment ships in the german flotilla.

I thought the NATO designation for our smaller "Flugkörperschnellboote" is PCG?

I was a bit puzzled over that. 2 frigates, 2 repl. ships and 4 FAC of the Gepard class, which can also be used as FPB just like SF300.

What does PCG stand for ?

 

[Waylander]

PCG= Should be Patrol Craft Guided (missile).
I just looked and you are right it seems they are designated as FACs.

Than I write down the individual ships which are going to Lebanon. Big story on our News Channels this day.

1x F123 Brandenburg class "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern" 4.900t
- 1x 76mm
- 2x 20mm
- 16x Sea Sparrow
- 4x Exocet MM38
- 2x RAM with 21 cells
- 4x 324mm torpedos Mk 32 Mod 9
- 2x Sea Lynx Mk 88 Helicopters

1x F122 Bremen class "Karlsruhe" 3.680t
- 1x 76mm
- 2x 20mm
- 8x Harpoon
- 16x Sea Sparrow
- 2x RAM with 21 cells
- 4x 324mm torpedos Mk 32
- 2x Sea Lynx Mk88 helicopters

1x Einsatzgruppenversorger class 702 "Frankfurt am Main" 18.637t (Replenishment ship with extra medical containers)
- 4x 20mm
- Stinger
- 2 Sea King helicopters

1x Elbe class tender "Elbe" 3.170t (Replenishment ship)
- 2x 20mm
- Stinger

4x Gepard class 143A FAC "Dachs", "Hyäne", "Nerz" and "Ozelot" 391t
- 1x 76mm
- 4x Exocet MM38
- 1x RAM with 21 cells
- Minelaying capacity

+ Some units of light naval infantry for boarding operations and port security.
That's it.

No F124 Sachsen class FFGs. Looks like they think area SAM and air radar cover is not necessary.

 

[Grand Danois]

Quite an impressive variety of missiles in der Bundesmarine.

PCG, FAC... Tomato, potato. Enough alphabet soup for me for now.

Now I need some :sleepy2 .

 

[Big-E]

Quite an impressive variety of missiles in der Bundesmarine.

They need to get the newest generations of them.

 

[Waylander]

We need better euipment for all our forces.
You have the money you could give us something.
But you are right especially our AntiShipMissiles need an upgrade.
As long as I know at least only RAM is the last generation.
I hope our RAM, Guns and Sea Sparrows are enough if there are some missiles in the air again.

Our navy may not be state of the art in all fields but for sure we could give an opponent a hard fight, especially in coastal areas.
Remember our old Tornados and Subs killed some of your carriers on several maneuvers (I don't want to know how often we lost all of them).

 

[Rich]

As an American, I would like to thank all of those countries who have deployed their young men and women next to ours in bioth Afghanistan and Iraq. We are democracies, and it it is only with the will of their people that European countries deploy troops and in what numbers. We can argue all day about how many troops this countriy or that one sent, but when we come down to it in these wars in Afghan and Iraq our sons and daughters from countires cusch as England, Canada, Italy have fought and died in support of our Amercian soldiers.


Thank-you

I would like to say "thank you" as well. I feel a whole lot better knowing our friends and allies are with us in Afghanistan.

 

[contedicavour]

I would like to say "thank you" as well. I feel a whole lot better knowing our friends and allies are with us in Afghanistan.

Heart-warming and very appreciated thanks

We're often less well equipped than your armed forces because of our insufficient defence budgets, but we try to do our share

cheers