European Armour

[.pt]

This is just an exercise, an idea, but any help and opinions will be wellcome.
if we could conceive an European Army, composed of the Armys of the nations now belonging to the European Union, and putting aside issues such as diferent procurement programs, bias toward national arms programs, different control& control structures, organization, etc etc, in terms of Armoured vehicles, such as MBT, APC , Self propelled guns, etc etc, what could we conclude on the strength of such combined forces and operationality, in 2006 and in the years to come (almost all UE nations are cuting defense expenditures), and is it even possible, even partially to compare with other Major Armys, such as, say the USArmy? Input from people who know armoured forces in these countries would be apreciated.
My idea, is that, currently, the Europeans could not hope to match the American armys, or probably the Russian Army, but they could give a serious headache to almost anyone else.Opinions?
.pt

 

[Waylander]

If you put all this aside you just have to count the numbers of vehicles, planes, ships and soldiers who are in active service + plus reserve forces.
Than you get the pure strength.
Should be the second most powerfull army in the world with the US being on top. (If you put away nukes)

Which countrys should be included? EU?

 

[Grand Danois]

Going by memory here.

The EU-25 have defense expenditures of 185 billion €. Include Norway, Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia as NATO members or EU prospects and you should get at least B190€. That's B241$ at an average expenditure of ~1.6% of GDP.

The US uses B445$ at 3.6% of GDP on defense.

EDIT: Oh, forgot Turkey, but don't know the numbers.

 

[.pt]

Europe

Thats what i want at first, waylander, pure force in numbers, but only regarding armour, i.e., number of MBT, APC, suporting units, etc. The base should be EU 25 plus the others Grand danois mentioned. Turkey should not be included at the moment due to uncertainties on their entrance process (No offense to anyone).
Good job on those figures for expenditure as % of GDP Great dane ,thanks.
After we get a good idea on pure strength, my point was to discuss, hipothetically, the efectiveness of those forces if used under a central command, to counter a credible threat (again, hipothetical) from another army.
.pt

 

[Waylander]

We have enough nationalities here, so we could start with everybody here posting the numbers of its own country. Should be much easier and faster than one guy trying to get the information on its own.

Germany (Target of our transformation for the near future):
- 350 Leopard II A5/A6(M) MBT, maybe some as PSO variant
- 410 Puma IFV, majority is for our mech inf but some are for FACs
- 185 PzH2000 self propelled artillery
- 206 Fennek scout/FAC vehicles
- 32 MARS (MLRS)
- 126 Gepard A2 AA-tanks
- round about 30 Luchs scout tanks, I really don't now definite numbers
- 343 Wiesel 20mm/TOW
- 200 Boxer APC/-40 command vehicle/ maybe 72 ambulances
- more than 800 Fuchs APCs in different versions (APC, EW, NBC,...)
- more than 1200 M113 in different versions, there are no infos how many will remain.
- 110 Dingo 2
- 350 Mungo
- there are no definite numbers for our Wiesel 2 variants which are going to serve as mortars, AA with stinger, scouts,...

(With thanks to TrangleC)

 

[TrangleC]

+ 110 Dingo 2
+ 350 Mungo
+ 192 Boxer

(source: LOYAL Magazine)

 

[Whiskyjack]

We have enough nationalities here, so we could start with everybody here posting the numbers of its own country. Should be much easier and faster than one guy trying to get the information on its own.

Germany (Target of our transformation for the near future):
- 350 Leopard II A5/A6(M) MBT, maybe some as PSO variant
- 410 Puma IFV, majority is for our mech inf but some are for FACs
- 185 PzH2000 self propelled artillery
- 206 Fennek scout/FAC vehicles
- 32 MARS (MLRS)
- 126 Gepard A2 AA-tanks
- round about 30 Luchs scout tanks, I really don't now definite numbers
- 343 Wiesel 20mm/TOW
- there are no definite numbers for our Wiesel 2 variants which are going to serve as mortars, AA with stinger, scouts,...

Out of interest, do you know how the Mech and armour will be structured? How many battalions will the German Army get out of 350 MTBs and 410 IFVs?

 

[Waylander]

6 tank btls and 8 mech.-inf. btls.
Not much for a country which fielded thousands of MBTs and IFVs in the '80s.

 

[Whiskyjack]

6 tank btls and 8 mech.-inf. btls.
Not much for a country which fielded thousands of MBTs and IFVs in the '80s.

How will the IFVs be issued? e.g. 13 per company?

Sorry to be a pain but I am interested on how armies structure their forces.

 

[Grand Danois]

Denmark!

• 51 Leopard 2A5.
  
  
• 45 CV 9035MkIII IFV, from 2007.
  
  
• 91 Piranha IIIC variants.
  
  
• 44 Piranha IIIH variants.
  
  
• 257 M113G3DK variants, recently refurbished & upgraded.
  
  
• ~300 M113/M113A1, wide variety of variants.
  
  
• 36 Eagle I. Recce.
  
  
• 85 Eagle IV, final delivery in 2007, will replace Eagle I.
  
  
• 30 HMMWV-TOW with TOW2.
  
  
• 76 M109A3 will be replaced with 36 FH77BD SPH from 2010.

Organized into two brigades with a Div HQ and Div units.

Don't ask about btls and regs, as I have completely lost track of it.

An excellent website on Danish armour in English!

http://www.armyvehicles.dk/daarmyveh.htm

Just realised during the search, that 1. Bde can surge up to 5,000 personnel for six months of international 'first in' duty. Yikes!

 

[Waylander]

Jap, 13 is right.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Jap, 13 is right.

Thanks, so that is 3 compaines with 13 IFVs, plus a support company?

 

[Waylander]

Jep.
Not long ago our Panzergrenadier companys also fielded an additional company of M113 120mm mortar vehicles and Jaguar II ATGM tank hunters but they have been phased out due to financial reasons.
I understand that we don't need special tank hunter like the Jaguars but the mortars...
Now everybody is calling for mortars in our army after they saw how usefull they still are in A-stan and Iraq.

 

[TrangleC]

They certainly look useful here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4g0Z-lQ1_U&search=panzergrenadiere

 

[Whiskyjack]

Jep.
Not long ago our Panzergrenadier companys also fielded an additional company of M113 120mm mortar vehicles and Jaguar II ATGM tank hunters but they have been phased out due to financial reasons.
I understand that we don't need special tank hunter like the Jaguars but the mortars...
Now everybody is calling for mortars in our army after they saw how usefull they still are in A-stan and Iraq.

So if I hear you correctly there are no mortars assigned at a battalion level either?

That would be counter to most western infantry structures IMO.

 

[Gladius]

The situation in Spain is very complicated with the new reform of the Armed Forces imposed by the Royal Decree 416/2006 that supposes a draconian reduction of the Army.

Estimations based on the contracts already signed and the plans still in course, but they may be submitted to changes with the new structure of the Army.

Def. Budget 2006: 7,416.5 Mill € (6,09% more than 2005)

Spain. (Est. Armor Force: 2006-2008)

· 219 Leopard 2E
· 108 Leopard 2A4 *(1)
· 60 M-60A3TTS [50-100 Placed in Reserve]
· 335 IFV Pizarro *(2)
· 500 M-113 TOA [813 M-113 Placed in Reserve]
· 19 AAV-7A
· 84 VRC-105 Centauro *(3)
· 208 VEC M1
· 566 BMR M1
· 18 Mowag Piranha IIIC *(4)
· 96 M-109A5E *(5)
· 32 M-110A2 [32 Placed in Reserve] *(5)
· 18 Teruel-3 RLS * (6)
· +200 Hummer TOW, URO VAMTACs TOW/Milan & Santana Anibal TOW/MILAN

Comments:
(1) Now on discussion: The modernization of all 108 A4 to 2E or the upgrade of 66 to 2E standard and the update and conversion of the remain 42 to 17 AVLB and 25 Buffell, in 2008.
(2) Aditional 88-130 units of many versions pending of negotiations over the third phase of VCI Pizarro Program.
(3) More units may be ordered with the changes made in the Cavalry Brigade Castillejos II.
(4) Phase I of spanish Piranha Program (Marine Infantry) is completed, Phase II & III will be ordered very soon (2006-2007).
(5) On discuss their replacement by PZH2000 or K-9.
(6) Planed to be replaced soon by 24 MLRS or HIMARS.

 

[swerve]

We have enough nationalities here, so we could start with everybody here posting the numbers of its own country. Should be much easier and faster than one guy trying to get the information on its own.

Germany (Target of our transformation for the near future):
- 350 Leopard II A5/A6(M) MBT, maybe some as PSO variant
- 410 Puma IFV, majority is for our mech inf but some are for FACs
- 185 PzH2000 self propelled artillery
- 206 Fennek scout/FAC vehicles
- 32 MARS (MLRS)
- 126 Gepard A2 AA-tanks
- round about 30 Luchs scout tanks, I really don't now definite numbers
- 343 Wiesel 20mm/TOW
- there are no definite numbers for our Wiesel 2 variants which are going to serve as mortars, AA with stinger, scouts,...

What about the Boxer?

Also, this ignores the Leopard 2 which are stored - about another 550 remaining, IIRC. Are they all for sale (in which case many are likely to end up in the hands of other European countries), or will some be kept in reserve?

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

Now the status of the French Army:

-~400 Leclercs MBT, and there is still a remaining company on AMX-30B2 Brenus who is used as Opfor (and 400 AMX-30B2 in reserve).
-320 AMX-10RC Light/Recon tank and 190 ERC-90 Sagaie recon tank. (all 6x6 and amphibous, but the major upgrade of these vehicles will delete this ability)
-900 VBL recon/multi purpose 4x4 vehicle.
-Some Bv206 for mountain troups.
- ~400 AMX-10P IFV (amphibious), all are going to be replaced by the VBCI 8x8
-3800 VAB 4x4 APC (amphibious), 125 are equipped with a launcher with 4 HOT ATGM
-about 30 ARV using the hull of the Leclerc (with crane and whinch), able to carry a mineclearing blade.
-71 EBG engineering vehicle, derivated from the AMX-30 and some AMX-30 with a modified turret to serve as mine field breaching vehicle (with blade, thermobaric charge launcher, etc etc...)

Unknow number of others vehicle like command post on VAB and AMX-10P, forward artillery observer on AMX-10P hull, 120mm mortar towed by VABs, Cobra artillery radar, etc etc...

-270 AUF-1 155mm self-propelled howitzer (39 cal.)
-Scheduled acquisition of 70 Caesar 155mm/52 cal self propelled gun. (5 already in trials)
-100 TRF-1 towed 155mm/52 cal gun.
- about 60 MLRS (m270)
- ~ 300 mistral launchers
- 69 I-Hawk system
- 95 Roland-2 anti air system on AMX-30 hull

The army accomodates a number of combat helicopters, lot are differents versions of the Gazelle. They can carry HOT ATGMs, 20 mm canon for close support and Mistral ATAM (air-to-air missile). But they are going to be replaced by the Tiger, a much more powerful machine. ~10 are already in service.

Our army thus represents a force of about 136 000 men, with 2 armored brigade and 2 light armored brigade, 2 mechanized infantry brigade and 1 mountain infantry brigade (considered as light but very well trained infantry, like special forces). 1 artillery brigade, 1 engineer brigade, 1 airborne and 1 helicopter brigade.
We are also involved in the Eurocorps, together with German forces.

 

[.pt]

Armour

Portugal:

- +- 100 M60A3
- 36 Leopard 2A5 (planned buy soon)
- 370 M113 (various versions)
- 4 M901 ITV tow launcher
- 38 Panhard M 11 light scout vehicle, some with MILAN
- 15 Cadillac gage V-150 with 90 mm gun
- 21 SPG M109 A2/A5
- +- 150 Pandur II IFV in various versions to start entering service 2007(260 total)
- Small number of Hummer and Uros vehicles
Lets see someone saying something about France, UK, Ireland, Netherlands, Belgium and all the other remaining countries.
.pt

 

[marcvs75]

Holland

110 leopard 2A6
184 CV9035
90 Patria (6x6 apc)
200 boxer (in near future)
410 Fennek
59 PZH 2000 houwitser