Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I am personally of the view that the optionally crewed/low crewed concept will be leap frogged and is an obsolete technology. We seem happy to automate aircraft and allow drone submarines to travel by themselves for 1,000 kms, but not for surface vessels. Doesn't make sense to me. I personally have my money on Defiance style platforms winning the day here.
I think the issue (at least in peacetime) is probably regulatory rather than technological.

COLREGS and maybe SOLAS?

Plus the risk of an armed non-crewed platform falling into the wrong hands when transiting a choke point wouldn't be a good look.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
With ranges of naval radars restricted by earths curvage ,naval ships attempt to have their sensory arrays a high as possible though too high may not track low flying incoming till late,with factors like stability of having masts so high on smaller ships is there an argument that ships like the Canberra class could have these larger arrays where stability is not such an issues providing an extended range for networking sensors with escorts?
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I am personally of the view that the optionally crewed/low crewed concept will be leap frogged and is an obsolete technology. We seem happy to automate aircraft and allow drone submarines to travel by themselves for 1,000 kms, but not for surface vessels. Doesn't make sense to me. I personally have my money on Defiance style platforms winning the day here.
Automated vessels such as the Defiance would complete Australia's trifecta of uncrewed aircraft, submersibles and surface vessels. If war breaks out we will need to mass produce weapons, preferably those ones we don't need to man. Ships like the Hunters or even the Mogami aren't ever going to be built in the numbers, or the speed required. The only crewed naval vessels we could produce quickly and in large numbers are Patrol Boats and that isn't going to win you a war.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
With ranges of naval radars restricted by earths curvage ,naval ships attempt to have their sensory arrays a high as possible though too high may not track low flying incoming till late,with factors like stability of having masts so high on smaller ships is there an argument that ships like the Canberra class could have these larger arrays where stability is not such an issues providing an extended range for networking sensors with escorts?
I can see some scope in a tethered aerial platform to the ship. The all electric aviation asset is directly powered by the ship giving the aviation asset very long persistence in the air above the ship.

While maybe limited in weight, it should provide that long distance over the horizon capability no ship mast will ever achieve

My understanding tests have been done in this area but unfortunately cannot find the source.

Cheers S
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
With ranges of naval radars restricted by earths curvage ,naval ships attempt to have their sensory arrays a high as possible though too high may not track low flying incoming till late,with factors like stability of having masts so high on smaller ships is there an argument that ships like the Canberra class could have these larger arrays where stability is not such an issues providing an extended range for networking sensors with escorts?
Ideally, multiple assets in a TF would have a variety of sensors to provide a different types of detection capabilities, with the results then shared across the TF so that vessels (and aircraft) could have some form of common operating picture. One potential issue though is the capabilities and scope of the comms, datalinks and CMS used aboard some of the vessels. Looking at the Huon-class MHC, IIRC they had a receive-only Link 11 datalink, which meant that if one of the MHC's had detected something, it did not have the ability to relay that to other vessels.

This is also one of the potential limitations on having smaller/cheaper vessels built to operate alongside MFU's in some sort of TF. One of the ways to keep vessels low cost would be to have minimal sensor, electronic, comms and CMS fitouts, as such kit can easily be quite expensive. OTOH, keeping such a fitout too minimal means that a vessel's ability to participate in a TF network would be minimal or non-existent.

As a practical matter, a TF would likely be better off if it was kitted and staffed in such a way that there was an orbiting surveillance aircraft constantly overhead providing some sort of overwatch capability. Whether this was a land-based fixed-wing MPA or AEW aircraft, organic AEW, air/sea search radar equipped UAV or a naval helicopter, something to provide a significantly higher and longer radar horizon, would likely make more of a difference than trying to up the number or power radars aboard the LHD's.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
I can see some scope in a tethered aerial platform to the ship. The all electric aviation asset is directly powered by the ship giving the aviation asset very long persistence in the air above the ship.

While maybe limited in weight, it should provide that long distance over the horizon capability no ship mast will ever achieve

My understanding tests have been done in this area but unfortunately cannot find the source.

Cheers S
Was this a source you were thinking of a possibility might be such a balloon giving away a ships positions but perhaps tethered to a drone operating on the horizon and providing data to other sensors might be something potentially
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Was this a source you were thinking of a possibility might be such a balloon giving away a ships positions but perhaps tethered to a drone operating on the horizon and providing data to other sensors might be something potentially
Essentially a electrically powered UAV
Not an inflatable.

I don’t think it was large so payload limited but I can see some potential.

Even a eye in the sky near the parent vessel a couple or hundred meters in the air has appeal.

Not out of question for the patrol vessels.

it does not have to be that big

cheers S
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
‘AUKUS is safe’: Pentagon review endorses sale of submarines

sorry paywall.

There are media leaks indicating that the US Pentagon AUKUS review (led by Colby) has been completed and that it will endorse selling Virginia submarines to Australia. We can expect this to be formalised prior to Albanese visiting the US on 20 Oct.

That should put paid to the uncertainty. Perhaps the commitment to bringing forward the Henderson facility and the associated $12B was the required pound of flesh to secure the outcome. I'm sure there has been a lot of interactions behind the scenes and a lot of stuff that will remain confidential.

This also came up on the morning radio news (I'm old fashoned and like the radio), so I suspect other non paywalled releases will come out shortly.
 

JBRobbo

Member
Never understood why past Government's didn't collaborate with Singapore with their Independence class littoral mission vessels, everything except their range is more than ideal + Australia has a trusted history with Saab. We tried this with Malaysia in the 90's before withdrawing, eventually culminating in the larger and more manpower-intensive 'Kedah' class.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Never understood why past Government's didn't collaborate with Singapore with their Independence class littoral mission vessels, everything except their range is more than ideal + Australia has a trusted history with Saab. We tried this with Malaysia in the 90's before withdrawing, eventually culminating in the larger and more manpower-intensive 'Kedah' class.
I suspect the issues involved timing and intended role. At the time Singapore placed the order for their Independence-class LMV's, which are really more like large patrol boats or small FSG's, Austal was already building Cape-class patrol boats for the RAN and ACS Marine Unit (now ABF Marine Unit). When SEA 1180 really got going around 2016, Australia was looking for an OPV, not a gun and missile-armed patrol vessel which given the overall size and displacement would likely not be as suitable for open ocean patrolling.
 

76mmGuns

Well-Known Member
Just a thought. Can Australia keep using the Type 26/Hunter design for a long time, say 40+ years? I ask this because I noticed Greece is buying the Fremm from Italy. Greece Signs MoU With Italy for Two FREMM Frigates - Naval News

The Fremm is a not a new design, with France announcing an order in 2005 for them , but it's still being built and ordered, with Italy ordering 2 more in 2024, and now Greece. So my train of thought is given Australia was intent on developing it's own sovereign capability, how far can we stretch the Hunter out? I know there's a limit, if we use the Arleigh Burke as an example(40 ish years). Any ideas, or have I violated forum rules by talking about the future without any concrete articles/announcements on this?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Just a thought. Can Australia keep using the Type 26/Hunter design for a long time, say 40+ years? I ask this because I noticed Greece is buying the Fremm from Italy. Greece Signs MoU With Italy for Two FREMM Frigates - Naval News

The Fremm is a not a new design, with France announcing an order in 2005 for them , but it's still being built and ordered, with Italy ordering 2 more in 2024, and now Greece. So my train of thought is given Australia was intent on developing it's own sovereign capability, how far can we stretch the Hunter out? I know there's a limit, if we use the Arleigh Burke as an example(40 ish years). Any ideas, or have I violated forum rules by talking about the future without any concrete articles/announcements on this?
You seem to have forgotten about the Constellation-class, which is to be an American version of the Italian version of the FREMM with 20 currently planned for service. If the US can get it's issues with the Americanized design sorted and then built, the lead ship in class is to enter service in ~2029 and with possible rate of perhaps two per year, construction for the USN is likely planned into 2040 if not later. With a 25 to 30 year service life being fairly normal, it would not be unreasonable for the USN to expect to have a Constellation-class frigate serving until around 2070.

Further, the USN has around 15 Flight III Arleigh Burke-class DDG's on order and I would expect their construction will not be completed for about 15 years, so the last vessel (assuming no more are ordered or cancelled) would run until about 2040 as well. Again, assuming a 25-30 year service life, we could easily see AB's in the USN well into the 2060's or even 2070's.

So, if Australia were able to keep the Hunter-class hull more or less in production, with periodic batch updates and modifications, then I expect a version of the base design could still be relevant for a long time.
 

iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
You seem to have forgotten about the Constellation-class, which is to be an American version of the Italian version of the FREMM with 20 currently planned for service. If the US can get it's issues with the Americanized design sorted and then built, the lead ship in class is to enter service in ~2029 and with possible rate of perhaps two per year, construction for the USN is likely planned into 2040 if not later. With a 25 to 30 year service life being fairly normal, it would not be unreasonable for the USN to expect to have a Constellation-class frigate serving until around 2070.

Further, the USN has around 15 Flight III Arleigh Burke-class DDG's on order and I would expect their construction will not be completed for about 15 years, so the last vessel (assuming no more are ordered or cancelled) would run until about 2040 as well. Again, assuming a 25-30 year service life, we could easily see AB's in the USN well into the 2060's or even 2070's.

So, if Australia were able to keep the Hunter-class hull more or less in production, with periodic batch updates and modifications, then I expect a version of the base design could still be relevant for a long time.
Plus it has a very quiet hull and propulsion system. No need to reinvent the wheel.
 

H_K

Member
‘AUKUS is safe’: Pentagon review endorses sale of submarines

There are media leaks indicating that the US Pentagon AUKUS review (led by Colby) has been completed and that it will endorse selling Virginia submarines to Australia. We can expect this to be formalised prior to Albanese visiting the US on 20 Oct.

That should put paid to the uncertainty.
Except for this HUGE caveat: "While industrial delays might affect the delivery of the submarines, no political decision had been made to alter the schedule."

As everyone knows US yards can't deliver on time* that seems like a polite way of saying "don't expect your first SSN in 2032".

* 13 Virginias currently building to be delivered between 2025-2032. However both 2025 deliveries have already been pushed into 2026. Also even if the planned production rate increase from 1.3 to 1.6 SSNs/year is achieved, this is still far below the 2.3 SSNs/year that the USN has stated it needs to turnaround its shrinking fleet and have 2 Virginias to spare for Australia
** The DoD plan critically hinges on the refueling and life extension 5-7 older SSNs. This plan is not going well, with the first hull (SSN Cheyenne) now 5 years into a planned 2.5 year overhaul.
*** Meanwhile, ~20 SSN/SSGNs are being retired during the same time period (16 Los Angeles + 4 Ohio SSGNs) having reached the end of their reactor lives, so no way to extend them further
 
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