Did Pakistan give cruise missiles to China in 99?

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Arjun, Thanks for the article.

1st, there is no proof that China has developed a Cruise missile.

2nd, there is no proof that Pakistan gave a cruise missile to China so that "they" can reverse engineer it.

3rd, if it was that easy to copy technology off of unexploaded cruise missile, why would Pakistan give that missile to China instead of having it's own missile and nuclear engineers work on it?

4th, the writer doesn't make a strong case even if the cruise missile was given. He works around the assumption that since high officials paid visit to Islamabad, it must have been because they came to say thank you. That is ridiculous enough to be in serious jokes section.

5th, if such news was true, why wasn't this news widely reported on MSM?

6th, enjoy.
 

highsea

New Member
The reports are sketchy, and are attributed to al-Qaida sources via the Guardian. Not exactly what you would consider iron-clad proof.

A cruise missile is not a bomb. They are very fragile, and would not survive a crash intact. They are designed to do many things, but they do not bounce when they hit the ground.
 

ArjunMK1

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China is indeed developing a cruise missile both land based and sea based.
It is egar to develop a Tomhawk like missile . the reports are extremely unclear and it is suggested that Russians are actively participating in supply of technology and Us ,European technology is also being sought out . Reverse engieerig of US Tomahawks is also being rumoured .

some links :
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/lacm.htm
http://www.sinodefence.com/missile/tactical/lacm.asp

here is a link claiming several nation's technology in China's Cruise missile :
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.71/pub_detail.asp

( United States In addition the PLA has aggressively sought American cruise missile technology in the form of U.S. TOMAHAWK cruise missiles, or parts thereof, lost during conflicts in Iraq, Bosnia and Afghanistan.[23] Both Saddam Hussein and the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan are believed to have traded U.S. TOMAHAWK parts to China in exchange for military and diplomatic support. Other types of U.S. technology may be aiding China’s cruise missile program. There are also reports that the PLA has converted U.S.-made Boeing 737 transport aircraft to support new strategic cruise missile testing. At least one report notes that the U.S. is investigating the possibility that the conversion of the Boeing 737 for military purposes represents an illegal diversion of U.S. technology, which could lead to economic sanctions against China.
)
 
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ArjunMK1

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Some relevant news :


Pakistanis Say They Are Studying U.S. Missile
Tomahawk Reportedly Was Recovered After Raid on Camps in Afghanistan


By Kamran Khan
Special to The Washington Post
Friday, August 28, 1998

KARACHI, Pakistan, Aug. 27—Pakistani scientists and weapons experts are studying components salvaged from an American cruise missile that landed last week in southern Pakistan, security sources said today. They expressed optimism that they could unlock technological secrets that will advance Pakistan's missile program.

Officials said experts associated with Pakistan's civilian and military missile programs were inspecting the guidance system, onboard computer and propulsion system of the Tomahawk missile, which was fired Aug. 20 in the U.S. attack on camps in Afghanistan but apparently fell short of its target.

Some sources indicated that information obtained by examining the missile might be shared with China, Pakistan's ally, but officials refused to comment on that possibility.

A Pakistani official speaking on condition of anonymity said the find was "a jackpot" that included the satellite global positioning system and other technological improvements made to Tomahawks since the 1991 Persian Gulf War. "We have missile experts who would most certainly demonstrate a remarkable job of reverse engineering" and develop technological know-how that Pakistan lacks, the official said.

Pakistan reported earlier this week that it had recovered the missile Saturday near Kharan, about 370 miles south of the targeted camps in Afghanistan. Pentagon officials have declined to confirm that a missile landed in Pakistan or to comment on the implications for Pakistan and China which hope to acquire cruise missiles.

The Pakistani sources noted with some surprise that the missile was largely intact when it was discovered. Sources in Washington said the Tomahawk might not have detonated because the arming mechanism is not activated until minutes before the missile reaches its target.

Retired Lt. Gen. Thomas G. McInerney said he doubted the Pakistani claims. When cruise missiles crash, he said, "its like dropping a Waterford crystal glass. They are designed to do a lot of things, but they aren't designed to bounce. They are very fragile." What did not break apart on impact would probably have been burned by the missile's fuel which would ignite on impact, he said.

U.S. defense officials also scoffed at the notion that the Pakistanis had gained an intelligence windfall, suggesting that the Tomahawk's technology already is widely available and noting that the loss of several such missiles during the Persian Gulf War is not known to have produced any breakthroughs for Iraq.

But a ranking security official in Islamabad, the Pakistani capital, pointed out that restrictions on technological transfers between the United States and Pakistan have been in effect for nearly a decade. Since 1990, when Washington cut military aid because it believed Pakistan had developed a nuclear bomb, information that the Pentagon might readily provide to another nation would have been harder to come by here, he said.

"It is a gift from the God," the official said. "The country that had denied us all sorts of economic and military assistance has suddenly gifted us the weapon of choice from its arsenal."

He voiced a note of caution, however, saying: "This will definitely enhance our knowledge about the latest missile technology, but how much -- it is too early to predict."

Other sources also acknowledged that they were unlikely to extract enough information from the Tomahawk components to be able to reproduce such a missile. They said, however, that their need for the kind of advanced weaponry found in U.S. arsenals is limited, and that they would be happy for even limited gains in missile technology.

"Pakistan is not the global player," one official said, adding that its defense needs are geared more toward dealing with "its arch-rival that lives next door."

Tensions between Pakistan and neighboring India, with which it has fought three wars in the last 51 years, have been high since both nations tested nuclear devices in May. While their nuclear programs have been the focus of world attention since the tests, the rivals' competition to develop more advanced, longer-range missiles has been almost as intense.

Officials declined to comment on whether Pakistan might share any discoveries with China, a close ally that the United States has repeatedly accused of helping Pakistan with its missile program.

Gen. Jehangir Karamat, the Pakistani army's chief of staff who heads the joint chiefs of staff, is currently touring China. A senior official at army headquarters said today that Karamat has been briefed on the initial reports from Pakistani scientists on the Tomahawk missile. "In view of extremely close ties between the two military services," the official said, he would be surprised if the findings were not discussed with Chinese officials.

U.S. government and private cruise missile experts said that while an intact Tomahawk would be of limited benefit to the Pakistanis, it could be of significant help to the more advanced Chinese military.

Of most immediate concern, said K. Scott McMahon, a national security expert with Pacific-Sierra Research Corp., an Arlington-based defense consultant firm, would be the ability of the Chinese to incorporate the missile's radar image into the air defense systems it sells to such nations as Albania, Iran, North Korea and Pakistan. "It would enable the Chinese to enhance their air defense system against what is arguably the most serious missile threat out there," he said. "The air defense implications for the Chinese are something we have to be seriously concerned about."

Experts said the Chinese have the technological know-how to study and to eventually copy the missile's guidance system, which matches photographic images of a target and surrounding terrain against the actual terrain it flies over. It also incorporates a satellite-based global positioning system.

The Chinese also could gain useful knowledge from studying the missile's airframe material, electronics, warhead and turbo-fan engine, experts said.

Staff writers Dana Priest and Bradley Graham in Washington contributed to this report.

© Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company

link : http://www.anomalous-images.com/news/news245.html


U.S. experts fear Pakistan shared Tomahawk missile with China;
Israel Defense Minister, executives seek new arms sales in Beijing


August 28
Pakistan officials claim its scientists and weapons experts are studying unexploded U.S. Tomahawk missiles used in the attack on terrorist camps in Afghanistan, the Washington Post reports. Pakistan sources expressed optimism that unlocking the Tomahawk's technological secrets - such as guidance systems, on-board computers and propulsion systems - would advance their missile program. However, U.S. experts fear that while Pakistan has limited engineering capabilities, that they would share the technology with their close ally, China.

Currently, Gen. Jehangir Karamat, head of Pakistan's Joint Chiefs of Staff, is on an official visit to China, where he has been briefed on scientists' initial findings on the Tomahawks. U.S. experts say that China has the expertise to study and eventually copy the missile's guidance system and incorporate the missile's advanced satellite global positioning system [GPS]. The Chinese could also gain useful knowledge from the missile's airframe material, electronics, warhead and turbo-fan engine. It would also allow the Chinese to incorporate the missile's radar image into the air defense systems it sells to nations such as Iran, North Korea, Libya and Pakistan.

"The air defense implications for the Chinese are something we seriously have to be concerned about," says K. Scott McMahon, a national security expert with Pacific-Sierra Research Corporation. "It would enable the Chinese to enhance their air defense system against what is arguably the most serious missile threat out there."

link : http://63.123.226.152/crm/crm116.htm
 
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SABRE

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My initial preception was also that the Crusie Missile was given to Chinese, but that dint happen. Its unkown wheather the Crusie exploded or remained intact & where it was taken. Americans demanded the return.

It is true that there have been reports on China making Crusie missiles (& they probably are ) but Pakistan has also been working on Cruises of its own. Wheather there is joint effort or not is unkown.

From official point of view, no there is no US crusie missile with China or Pakistan & they are not working on any.
 

ashblackhawk

Banned Member
SABRE said:
but Pakistan has also been working on Cruises of its own.
Pakistan "Cruise Missile" if it is true that they are doing on their own, i must say they that they might be world class in their research in precision guided weapons. If it is joint development with China then they might advance rapidly in that technology.:coffee
 

ArjunMK1

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SABRE said:
My initial preception was also that the Crusie Missile was given to Chinese, but that dint happen. Its unkown wheather the Crusie exploded or remained intact & where it was taken. Americans demanded the return.

It is true that there have been reports on China making Crusie missiles (& they probably are ) but Pakistan has also been working on Cruises of its own. Wheather there is joint effort or not is unkown.

From official point of view, no there is no US crusie missile with China or Pakistan & they are not working on any.
Did the pakistanis delivered all the unexploded cruises to the US ??? Any link?

If no then there will always be a speculation .
 

SABRE

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ArjunMK1 said:
Did the pakistanis delivered all the unexploded cruises to the US ??? Any link?

If no then there will always be a speculation .
Nothing was revealed. The facts would be in the classified files & they are released to public after 20 yrs. So what ever happened to that Cruise Missile may be revealed only after 20yrs & thats a "May Be".

Since its Govt Classified there would be no "link" & any u find is false.

The speculation in Pakistan is that it remains in Pakistan. Since we had cold ties with Clinton we ignored his demands & Bush has never publicaly asked for it even if he did Pakistani techs would already have opened it up by the time he asked. No physical part of the missile would have been transfered to Chinese & only may be what Pakistani scientist learned & wrote it on paper. But tech today is such that it is hard reverse engineer things like these.

Kamran Khan is renound journalist in Pakistan but I doubt any scientist wheather he worked on it or not would open his mouth to media.
 
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ArjunMK1

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SABRE said:
Nothing was revealed. The facts would be in the classified files & they are released to public after 20 yrs. So what ever happened to that Cruise Missile may be revealed only after 20yrs & thats a "May Be".

Since its Govt Classified there would be no "link" & any u find is false.

Then whats next. Are we at a dead end ??? :confused:
 

SABRE

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ArjunMK1 said:
Then whats next. Are we at a dead end ??? :confused:
Unless & untill Pakistan or China or Both (in joint venture) test fire the cruise missile yes we are at a dead end. Even when they are tested I doubt either Chinese or Pakistani would be similar to the Cruise Missile. The reports of both countries developing Crusie Missiles are of much before the US strikes on Afghanistan.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
SABRE said:
Unless & untill Pakistan or China or Both (in joint venture) test fire the cruise missile yes we are at a dead end. Even when they are tested I doubt either Chinese or Pakistani would be similar to the Cruise Missile. The reports of both countries developing Crusie Missiles are of much before the US strikes on Afghanistan.
Interesting, that a potential cruise missile test was reported by Janes very recently. Link:
http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw050722_1_n.shtmlhttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1448870/posts

However about this issue, I do remember hearing such reports back then. However this is not an event that will be ever confirmed by official sources. We'll just have to see if China comes up with their own Tomahawk or not.
 
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SABRE

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srirangan said:
Interesting, that a potential cruise missile test was reported by Janes very recently. Link:
http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw050722_1_n.shtml

However about this issue, I do remember hearing such reports back then. However this is not an event that will be ever confirmed by official sources. We'll just have to see if China comes up with their own Tomahawk or not.
China has been working on its crusie missile for quite a long time & there is no doubt that they will come up with one even if initialy they come up with poorer version. There is no going back for them. Janes may be correct.

How ever Pakistan's project is unknown. So nothing can be said that wheather we dumped our old R&D & started with the US Cruise Missile but I highly doubt we did. Its not easy to reverse engineer. I herd that US technology today is on self destruction mode if some one tries to reverse engineer. I think Highsea can shed light on this.

On the other hand I did manage to find out this; after the Cruise Missile was found Pakistan experts took it with them. US than asked Pakistan to return it & even before they do that US offered to sent experts to dismental it. Wheather the experts came or not is not know.
 

mysterious

New Member
Not really. They are designed in such way that even if the missile doesn't explode, key tech elements would be ruined on impact to make sure no one else gets to examine them. But who knows, perhaps this particular Tomahawk didn't follow procedure and remained intact to a good extent.
 

SABRE

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ArjunMK1 said:
Is it possible to get the missile intact after its huge ground impact ?
Well because of some melfunction the Missile might have slowed down first & than crashed but still considering the normal conditions & physics the missile definitly would have got some good damage. Internal damages might prevent proper reverse engineering as well.

I think the missile will be in pieces. Does the electronics and navigational equipments will remain in a piece ??
Some time Fight Jets crash intact but offcourse some serious damage to some part is always done. In a same way a missile can also crash intact. Iran once fired a Missile on Iraq (Dont know the type) during Iran-Iraq war. The Missile went straight towards the shrine of the holliest saints of Sunni Islam (Badsha Pir or King of Saints). The Missile dint explode. Offcourse Iraqis defused it but they let the war head remain there stuck on the wall of shrine. Ppl say it is still there. So even after it struck the wall it dint break into pieces. Physics works in mysterious ways ;) .

I herd that US tech is set to self destruction if reverse engineering is tried to be performed (as I said it before). The self destruction doesnt mean that it will explode like a bomb so that means that it is the electronic system (in this case Navigational system aswell) is destroyed by it self it they are not destroyed by the explosion or the impact.

You should ask highsea abt this. He'll give u proper picture. PM him or wait for him to read this.
 

Awang se

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there are 1001 way for the missile to stay intact after landing. one example scenario, the missile engine failed. but the diagnostic system that detect the malfunction also failed and the flight computer didn't know that the engine have failed. the missile keep it's flying attitude. the computer detect the loss of speed and altitude so the computer send a signal for more power from engine but as we already know, the engine have failed. the computer keep the missile in level flight or nose up to gain altitude and because the missile flight plan means it will fly at treetop level, they won't be enough time for the vertical drop speed to reach destructive level, also the forward speed was already to low from the lack of engine thrust and constant adjustment of control surface. and so, when the missile reach the ground it is in level flight condition and the missile body just slide for some distance before it stopped. fortunately, the missile land on field full of tall grass, the soft grass and ground absorb most of a low impact force from the missile landing. even, when on the ground, because of the diagnostic system failure, the missile still maintain it's flight plan and failed to self destruct.
 

Francois

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Awang se said:
there are 1001 way for the missile to stay intact after landing. one example scenario, the missile engine failed....
In engineering, there is one way to improve reliability and therefore failure, it is called redundancy. And I can tell you that a self-destruction capability on a TLAM is rather high on the list.
Just some RM&S dept matter. So the prob to have double failure is rather... remote.
 

VICTORA1

New Member
Murphy's law does apply. Whatever can go wrong will go wrong. Most unpredictable results would be the outcome of predictable scenarios. A missile supposed to self destruct in a malfunction situation, will not destroy itself. A missile instead of falling on hard ground would fall on the softest patch that one could find in thousands of square miles of rock and mountain. And last but not the least, a cruise missile will land intact in the nation of pakistan out of all the places. Lo and behold the sanctimonious / sanctions.

I keep telling my pakistani buddies, thank the U S of A. We are greatful to it for giving us whatever we need. The method of delivery maynot be the most appropriate, but the end result is indeed gratifying.
 
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