Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Stampede]

They will be, at last, a modern day replacement for the Bathurst Class Corvettes and River Class Frigates of WWII.

There were multiple attempts from the 60s onwards to build a class of useful, survivable combatants in decent numbers, to supplement the major combatants. Every time they ended up growing too much and being cancelled or actually ended up as compromised replacements for the majors.

We always seemed to end up with the worst of both worlds. Our majors were ordered too small so as to free up cash for greater numbers, but then the greater numbers were never ordered.

Arguably for the numbers we have had, we should have had DLGs or helicopter cruisers, instead of DDGs, and DDGs instead of frigates. Then instead of the MEKO ANZACs, OHP FFGs.

I’ve come around to the tier two concept , but build numbers and time frames are still an unknown.
SEA 3000 will probably extend out to the late 2030’s if all 11 vessels are aquired
A lot could happen in that timeframe

With lots of talk about about the variety of tasks a vessel under takes , be it a Frigate / Destroyer or even a Landing Craft Heavy will we have the ship numbers to compensate for the demise of the mine warfare and surveys vessels.

Cheers S

 

[Reptilia]

Maybe Austal already know…
Silhouettes on these investor reports have been spot on prior to these selection announcements from defence.

LC-M > Birdon LCM silhouette (50m) > Birdon 50m Medium Landing Craft selected
LC-H > Damen LST silhouette (100m est) > Damen LST 100m Heavy Landing Craft selected
GPF > Mogami silhouette (130m est) > Mogami General Purpose Frigate selected??
Just waiting on an announcement of 11 new Evolved Capes to be built for ABF…

 

[iambuzzard]

Maybe Austal already know…
Silhouettes on these investor reports have been spot on prior to these selection announcements from defence.

LC-M > Birdon LCM silhouette (50m) > Birdon 50m Medium Landing Craft selected
LC-H > Damen LST silhouette (100m est) > Damen LST 100m Heavy Landing Craft selected
GPF > Mogami silhouette (130m est) > Mogami General Purpose Frigate selected??
Just waiting on an announcement of 11 new Evolved Capes to be built for ABF…

Hopefully it's the Evolved Mogami. The production line will be starting when we're ready to start cutting steel on ours.

 

[Milo]

This article says it is one Japanese design and two German designs being considered. Both of the German designs are MEKO A200, one based on the Egyptian frigate and one fitted with Australian systems, eg the SAAB 9LV combat management system.

Australia’s newest warships could be fitted with combat management systems not already used by Navy

By Andrew Greene

More details are emerging of Australia's $10 billion general purpose frigate program, with two warship options being considered that don't have combat systems already operated by the navy.

The Albanese government has confirmed it has downselected the Mogami frigate from Japan's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) and two different offerings from Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS).

The ABC understands that TKMS has proposed an Egyptian configuration of its A200 MEKO frigate or an ANZAC version which uses subsystems already in use by the Royal Australian Navy.

Defence Industry Minister Pat Conroy has acknowledged just one of the three downselected options is equipped with the SAAB 9LV combat management system currently in use with other RAN warships but insists it's not a problem.
"We've operated multiple combat management systems in the past. When I talk to the chief of navy, his focus is on getting more hulls in the water — more hulls with very exciting capability," Conroy told the ABC.

The minister has also defended the decision to build the first three general purpose frigates overseas before transferring the construction to Western Australia, saying: "It's all about speed to capability — we need to urgently recapitalise the navy."

Tech giants front snap inquiry into social media ban, asking for more time before bill is introduced — as it happened - ABC News

 

[Reptilia]

This article says it is one Japanese design and two German designs being considered. Both of the German designs are MEKO A200, one based on the Egyptian frigate and one fitted with Australian systems, eg the SAAB 9LV combat management system.

Australia’s newest warships could be fitted with combat management systems not already used by Navy

By Andrew Greene

More details are emerging of Australia's $10 billion general purpose frigate program, with two warship options being considered that don't have combat systems already operated by the navy.

The Albanese government has confirmed it has downselected the Mogami frigate from Japan's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) and two different offerings from Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS).

The ABC understands that TKMS has proposed an Egyptian configuration of its A200 MEKO frigate or an ANZAC version which uses subsystems already in use by the Royal Australian Navy.

Defence Industry Minister Pat Conroy has acknowledged just one of the three downselected options is equipped with the SAAB 9LV combat management system currently in use with other RAN warships but insists it's not a problem.
"We've operated multiple combat management systems in the past. When I talk to the chief of navy, his focus is on getting more hulls in the water — more hulls with very exciting capability," Conroy told the ABC.

The minister has also defended the decision to build the first three general purpose frigates overseas before transferring the construction to Western Australia, saying: "It's all about speed to capability — we need to urgently recapitalise the navy."

Tech giants front snap inquiry into social media ban, asking for more time before bill is introduced — as it happened - ABC News

‘Variants of the MEKO A-200 for Australia

For the first batch of three frigates to be produced in Germany, tkMS is offering the MEKO A-200. This frigate is 121 meters long, 16.34 meters wide and has a displacement of 3,940 tons. It is capable of accommodating both a Seahawk helicopter and two unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). The MEKO A-200 is powered by a CODAG WARP system, which enables a top speed of over 28 knots. At a cruising speed of 16 knots, she has a range of 6,500 nautical miles. The crew numbers 125 people, including the helicopter contingent, and there is space for an additional 49 people.

When delivering the MEKO A-200EN for Egypt, tkMS has already shown that they can both deliver quickly and implement technology transfer. There are two possible versions of the A-200 available for Australia.

On the one hand there is the MEKO A-200 Batch III, which was built for Egypt. It is equipped with the ATLAS Elektronik ANCS Combat Management System (CMS), the Thales NS-110 radar and a sonar suite from ATLAS Elektronik. The armament includes, among other things, the 127/64 Lightweight anti-ship gun from Leonardo, 32 MICA NG anti-aircraft missiles, 16 Exocet MM40 Block 3 anti-ship missiles from MBDA as well as Typhoon 30mm Remote Weapon Stations (RWS) from Rafael and MU90 lightweight torpedoes.

Alternatively, the MEKO A-200 Batch IV could also be adapted for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN). This version could include Saab's 9LV guidance and weapons deployment system, Saab's Sea Giraffe 4A radar and a Thales sonar suite. Possible armament would include a 76/62 STRALES naval gun from Leonardo, 16 NSM anti-ship missiles from Kongsberg and 16 MK41 'Tactical' VLS cells for 64 ESSM Block 2 anti-aircraft missiles. A PHALANX short-range defense system and Nulka decoy launchers could also be integrated.

Both versions of the MEKO A-200 apparently meet the requirements of the Royal Australian Navy and could therefore be considered for the first batch to be built in Germany. Delivery of the first batch is planned for 2029 and the costs are estimated at around two billion euros.‘ = 3.2 billion AUD

Australien auf Fregatten-Kurs: Deutsch-australische Rüstungskooperation in Reichweite

Im Rahmen des australischen Flottenumbaus bietet sich für Deutschland eine strategische Gelegenheit: Der geplante Bau von Tier-2-Kampfschiffen könnte die bewährten MEKO-Designs von thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (tkMS) ins Spiel bringen. Doch für eine erfolgreiche Partnerschaft bedarf es nicht nur...

esut.de

 

[protoplasm]

In all of the discussions about possible GPF I don’t understand why we aren’t putting the current fit of ANZAC Class systems on a bigger hull with extra Mk41 VLS cells. All the hard integration work has already been done, just spec a hull, propulsion machinery and hotel services and then use the already developed CMS, sensors and effectors suite. This should be able to happen relatively quickly as most of the issues have already been worked through.

All the good work over the last 2 decades to standardise CMS and other systems across classes is about to be wasted.

 

[Todjaeger]

In all of the discussions about possible GPF I don’t understand why we aren’t putting the current fit of ANZAC Class systems on a bigger hull with extra Mk41 VLS cells. All the hard integration work has already been done, just spec a hull, propulsion machinery and hotel services and then use the already developed CMS, sensors and effectors suite. This should be able to happen relatively quickly as most of the issues have already been worked through.

All the good work over the last 2 decades to standardise CMS and other systems across classes is about to be wasted.

I do not know, but I suspect it has to do with timing and perceived risk, as well as the likelihood that whilst the idea of porting over the ANZAC-class electronics and CMS might seem straightforward, the reality is likely a bit more complicated.

I would expect, given time and resources the detailed design of a future frigate could be fitted with the ANZAC-class systems, but there would likely need to be some (potentially significant) layout changes from whatever the base design is.

If the current plan is to have the three lead vessels built in an overseas yard for delivery by ~2030, having that base design altered to fit Australian systems could be potentially problematic (with time required for the detailed design) as well as the overseas yard likely not being able to benefit as much from a 'hot' production line because now whatever is being built would be to a modified design.

As it stands now, we still do not even know what the three reported contenders are, never mind how they are to be fitted out.

TBH I remain fairly pessimistic about what the actual outcome will be, and suspect it will likely end up being overly expensive and inefficient/ineffective. If it was 'just' about expanding the size of the RAN warship fleet, or rapidly increasing the number of escorts beyond what could be built in Australia in the short-term, either situation would be one thing. Unfort SEA 3000 is also about establishing a new/another centre for RAN warship production, at a site which has no prior experience in naval construction. Colour me skeptical on this being a good or even realistic idea.

 

[Redlands18]

In all of the discussions about possible GPF I don’t understand why we aren’t putting the current fit of ANZAC Class systems on a bigger hull with extra Mk41 VLS cells. All the hard integration work has already been done, just spec a hull, propulsion machinery and hotel services and then use the already developed CMS, sensors and effectors suite. This should be able to happen relatively quickly as most of the issues have already been worked through.

All the good work over the last 2 decades to standardise CMS and other systems across classes is about to be wasted.

The Japanese while they have the bigger hull, have no experience in integrating foreign systems into their ships. The Germans while very experienced in integrating different systems into their designs as well as building the A200, don't have a suitable larger ready to go design in place.

The sheer numbers involved will negate the non-standardisation to some degree, and we have rarely had only 2 systems in place let alone 1.
Mid 80s to late 90s: Rivers, Perth's, Adelaide's,
2000-2019: Adelaide's, Anzacs
Current: Hobart's, Anzac's

 

[Takao]

The Japanese while they have the bigger hull, have no experience in integrating foreign systems into their ships. The Germans while very experienced in integrating different systems into their designs as well as building the A200, don't have a suitable larger ready to go design in place.

No experience in integrating foreign systems into their ships?

From Kongo onwards, their DDGs have used SPY-1 with Aegis combat systems. They have been using Aegis longer than us. Their Maya's went to v7 before we did too! In addition, their use of the 5" Mk 45 gun, SPG-62 radar, Link 11, and Mk 41 VLS means that the JMSDF is a force designed to integrate with the same systems found on our Hobarts. The Mogami engine is the same as the Type 26 and Hunter, meaning that spares will be easier. Straight up that's British and US systems integrated with Japanese systems.

Even if Mogami uses only Japanese systems (which they don't), they are still designed to integrate within their own fleet, and there is little difference between a Maya/Kongo and a Hobart (from systems point of view....). If we are going to end up with a stand-alone fleet, why not use one that right now is designed to use the Mk 41 VLS and integrate with Aegis v7/9? From a joint force point of view, we could even leverage the Type 03-Chu as another option for IAMDS that spreads our supply chain risk.

The hypothetical A200 has nothing in common with the fleet it will fight with

 

[Going Boeing]

Both versions of the A200 that are “being considered“ only have 16 Mk41 VLS each so, when Conroy advised via his speech at the National Press Club that the RAN was being grown to have a total of 880 launchers, was he indicating that the Evolved Mogami has already been selected or, was he quoting a figure at the upper end of the growth plans and it’s quite possible that the RAN will end up with considerably less?

 

[Reptilia]

Both versions of the A200 that are “being considered“ only have 16 Mk41 VLS each so, when Conroy advised via his speech at the National Press Club that the RAN was being grown to have a total of 880 launchers, was he indicating that the Evolved Mogami has already been selected or, was he quoting a figure at the upper end of the growth plans and it’s quite possible that the RAN will end up with considerably less?

He said 880 cells, so that could be 3 of the 5 below with 32 VLS. If he was somehow including VLS(16) + SSM(16) together which would be odd, that could mean 2 of the 5 below.
All are in play…

TKMS(Germany), 2 of the designs below have been down selected, media reporting the top 2.
-Batch III Egyptian MEKO A200 - 32 VL MICA NG cells
-Batch IV AusSpec MEKO A200 - 16 MK41 Tactical length cells
-A210 has 32 MK41 Strike length cells

Mitsubishi(Japan), 1 of the designs below have been down selected.
-Mogami - 16 MK41 Tactical length cells
-Upgraded Mogami - 32 MK41 Strike length cells

 

[iambuzzard]

He said 880 cells, so that could be 3 of the 5 below with 32 VLS. If he was somehow including VLS(16) + SSM(16) together which would be odd, that could mean 2 of the 5 below.
All are in play…

TKMS(Germany), 2 of the designs below have been down selected, media reporting the top 2.
-Batch III Egyptian MEKO A200 - 32 VL MICA NG cells
-Batch IV AusSpec MEKO A200 - 16 MK41 Tactical length cells
-A210 has 32 MK41 Strike length cells

Mitsubishi(Japan), 1 of the designs below have been down selected.
-Mogami - 16 MK41 Tactical length cells
-Upgraded Mogami - 32 MK41 Strike length cells

I feel the TKMS designs are too small with little room for expansion of systems. What's the power output available for future lasers, etc?

 

[old faithful]

We will get an official announcement just before the election I would think, so it doesn't really matter what we want Santa to bring us, we will get what we get when we are told.
Even after we select a ship, then we have to wait for the contracts. The number of vessels was "up to 11" that does not mean 11, I have seen written elsewhere that the number is most probably 9.

 

[Reptilia]

I feel the TKMS designs are too small with little room for expansion of systems. What's the power output available for future lasers, etc?

The A210 future proofed, up to 1000kw maybe.
Atm, 20-50kw.

 

[iambuzzard]

The A210 future proofed, up to 1000kw maybe.
Atm, 20-50kw.

What about the Mogami and Evolved Mogami?

 

[Reptilia]

What about the Mogami and Evolved Mogami?

None, but planned. Both Mitsubishi and Kawasaki have programs.

 

[iambuzzard]

None, but planned. Both Mitsubishi and Kawasaki have programs.

Will the Mogami variants have enough power?

 

[DDG38]

All of this speculation is utterly moot if you don't have people to man all these ships. And currently, the ADF is still way under their recruitment targets. Retention bonuses being offered (which are too little too late for many categories particularly competing with mining salaries etc) as a stop gap measure while many reviews and committee meeting talk fests trying to work out how to build a work force to train and equip new platforms.

 

[StevoJH]

All of this speculation is utterly moot if you don't have people to man all these ships. And currently, the ADF is still way under their recruitment targets. Retention bonuses being offered (which are too little too late for many categories particularly competing with mining salaries etc) as a stop gap measure while many reviews and committee meeting talk fests trying to work out how to build a work force to train and equip new platforms.

Is recruitment under target due to lack of applicants? Lack of suitable applicants? Or due to issues with the recruitment process itself?

Is there any information regarding the number of applications made versus the number of people who end up joining?

And of those who don’t join, how many are rejected versus how many withdraw the application?

 

[devo99]

All of this speculation is utterly moot if you don't have people to man all these ships. And currently, the ADF is still way under their recruitment targets. Retention bonuses being offered (which are too little too late for many categories particularly competing with mining salaries etc) as a stop gap measure while many reviews and committee meeting talk fests trying to work out how to build a work force to train and equip new platforms.

I can say for us in the NHSA we are making our own efforts to reach out to the younger demographic for the sake of attracting people towards Navy careers on top of the regular Navy history work we do. It can be a struggle sometimes though with only a handful of the team including myself being younger than 60. Not to mention our limited resources.