Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
I wonder if TKMS will bring back its A-200 AAW proposal from the late 90s... this variant's main changes from the baseline were in the masts (SMART-L / APAR combo or SPY-1F) along with 3 MK-41 VLS (1x full length launcher forward for 8x SM-2 and 2x8 short launchers midships for 64x ESSM).

Given the desire for an off-the-shelf solution and fast timeline it's an interesting debate whether this would qualify. The CMS + sensor integration would likely be the hardest bit... one option would be to ask Saab to "lift & shift" the 9LV / Sea Giraffe / CEROS AAW solution which is being integrated on upgraded German F-123 frigates and on new build Finish frigates. That would require physical integration work but at least would bring aboard an off-the-shelf integrated combat suite from a single vendor with also a high commonality with existing RAN systems... which is arguably preferable in the long run to sticking with the off-the-shelf (but non-RAN standard) Atlas ANCS CMS. Another further change could be to try to drop in a CEAFAR mast, but that would add time, expense & risk and might be pushing physical limits.

A-200 AAW proposal (1990s):



BTW, one advantage of Meko A-200 over Mogami is that the technology transfer package largely exists, as the Egyptians built one hull themselves, so this could allow for a two track build abroad while ramping up domestic production (at Civmec Henderson?).
An interesting proposal. As a layman I personally lean towards the Evolved Mogami with 32 Strike Length Mk.41 VLS. It gives you more options, plus it's MCM abilities, low crewing and low radar profile make it a compulsive choice. It also appears to have more room for upgrade possibilities. The A200 option, although quite capable, still looks packed to the gills. If I got any descriptions wrong, my apologies.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The issue with MEKO is that the A200 doesn’t exist at present in a configuration that would be acceptable to the RAN, and I doubt it would offer much in the way of growth margins.

As for the A210, I don’t think it even exists?
Defence advised Senate Estimates on 07 November, all 5 short-listed bidders were required in the tender to submit an in-service design without modification. All bidders were also invited to suggest modifications to these in-service options to better suit RAN requirements. All bidders provided options for both in their responses. Government directed Defence evaluate un-modified designs. Whether RAN likes it or not, they are still subject to Government direction…

Defence received these offers in July 2024 and finished their analysis and review in late October and communicated their formal advice to Government in early November 2024, which is where this now sits awaiting for a decision.


(page 99 onwards).

The news about TKMS and Japan being the successful short-listed bidders appears to have leaked around that time, but Government is sending formal representatives to each country to advise them of our decisions before they are announced, “officially”.
 

Underway

Active Member
So if they are evaluating unmodified designs then 32 mk 41VLS equivalent is completely off the table.

So get used to 16 VLS by the looks of things.
 

iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
Imagine if the FFG-7 had been upgraded with 16 VLS for 64 ESSM plus the mixed load out for the Mk.13 launcher.
Now that would have been a well armed ship ahead of it's time.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Defence advised Senate Estimates on 07 November, all 5 short-listed bidders were required in the tender to submit an in-service design without modification. All bidders were also invited to suggest modifications to these in-service options to better suit RAN requirements. All bidders provided options for both in their responses. Government directed Defence evaluate un-modified designs. Whether RAN likes it or not, they are still subject to Government direction…

Defence received these offers in July 2024 and finished their analysis and review in late October and communicated their formal advice to Government in early November 2024, which is where this now sits awaiting for a decision.


(page 99 onwards).

The news about TKMS and Japan being the successful short-listed bidders appears to have leaked around that time, but Government is sending formal representatives to each country to advise them of our decisions before they are announced, “officially”.
Ironically risk is now assessed as risk and opportunity. You have project risk, technical risk and of course systems safety, but now instead of just dealing with risk we can look at opportunities.

I can guarantee the various SPOs will be making very robust arguments in regards to support systems. The impacts of bespoke systems on the new frigates will have very major impacts on training and sustainment that extend long past any savings made during design and acquisition.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Imagine if the FFG-7 had been upgraded with 16 VLS for 64 ESSM plus the mixed load out for the Mk.13 launcher.
Now that would have been a well armed ship ahead of it's time.
I believe the Tenix proposal for FFGUP included replacing the Mk-13 with a Mk-41. Options included installing additional VLS in one of the hangars.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I believe the Tenix proposal for FFGUP included replacing the Mk-13 with a Mk-41. Options included installing additional VLS in one of the hangars.
In the end wouldn’t the limiting factor for the FFG’s have been the sensor fitout and combat management system rather than whatever weapons they were armed with?

A combination of 40 SM2-MR and Harpoon, plus 32 ESSM is a pretty solid loadout. That’s more area anti-air missiles than dedicated AAW ships like Sachen and Type 45. Though obviously they couldn’t be fired quite as quickly in an emergency.

Did they still have a 2D air search radar at EOL?
 

d-ron84

Member
In the end wouldn’t the limiting factor for the FFG’s have been the sensor fitout and combat management system rather than whatever weapons they were armed with?

A combination of 40 SM2-MR and Harpoon, plus 32 ESSM is a pretty solid loadout. That’s more area anti-air missiles than dedicated AAW ships like Sachen and Type 45. Though obviously they couldn’t be fired quite as quickly in an emergency.

Did they still have a 2D air search radar at EOL?
Just a quick one, you could never have a full 40 loadout. back in SM-1 days you could have 38 - 8 Harpoon, 30 SM-1, 1 GMTR and a space to be able to move them around. When SM-2 came around you carried less, you needed a second GMTR (one for Harpoon, 1 for SM-2, as they were not dual programmed like for SM-1) plus the increased weight of the missiles meant a full loadout would be 8 Harpoon, 22 SM-2 plus your 32 ESSM.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just a quick one, you could never have a full 40 loadout. back in SM-1 days you could have 38 - 8 Harpoon, 30 SM-1, 1 GMTR and a space to be able to move them around. When SM-2 came around you carried less, you needed a second GMTR (one for Harpoon, 1 for SM-2, as they were not dual programmed like for SM-1) plus the increased weight of the missiles meant a full loadout would be 8 Harpoon, 22 SM-2 plus your 32 ESSM.
Which would have made replacing the Mk-13 with a 32cell Mk-41 very attractive. Harpoon would likely have been moved to canisters in that case.

Fantasy fleets here but just imagine that instead of ANZAC we built an evolved FFG? Taiwan looked at doing so, one of their proposals was very interesting, 5" gun and VLS forward, but most interestingly, a switch to twin shafts, one for each GT.

I don't know about a major redesign of the propulsion layout, but a 32 cell Mk-41 and 5" forward would have been very interesting. Then again, a stretched ANZAC was flagged as a DDG, early FFG replacement in the mid 90s. A twin shaft FFG would have been a good starting base.
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
Which would have made replacing the Mk-13 with a 32cell Mk-41 very attractive. Harpoon would likely have been moved to canisters in that case.

Fantasy fleets here but just imagine that instead of ANZAC we built an evolved FFG? Taiwan looked at doing so, one of their proposals was very interesting, 5" gun and VLS forward, but most interestingly, a switch to twin shafts, one for each GT.

I don't know about a major redesign of the propulsion layout, but a 32 cell Mk-41 and 5" forward would have been very interesting. Then again, a stretched ANZAC was flagged as a DDG, early FFG replacement in the mid 90s. A twin shaft FFG would have been a good starting base.
My recall of the proposed Taiwanese FFG was the 5” gun replacing the Mk-13 on the foredeck and the 32 cell Mk-41 in the midship superstructure replacing the 76mm gun - it seemed to be a good way to increase the firepower of the FFG but I always wondered if it would have been top heavy.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My recall of the proposed Taiwanese FFG was the 5” gun replacing the Mk-13 on the foredeck and the 32 cell Mk-41 in the midship superstructure replacing the 76mm gun - it seemed to be a good way to increase the firepower of the FFG but I always wondered if it would have been top heavy.
Yes you are right, the superstructure where the 3" was situated was cut down by two decks if I recall. It was a very interesting concept.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
So if they are evaluating unmodified designs then 32 mk 41VLS equivalent is completely off the table.

So get used to 16 VLS by the looks of things.
That is what is so different about this project, that I think many have failed to comprehend. A lot of people are running with the “but such a decision will incur problem X…”

Yes it might, but it doesn’t mean it won’t happen because speed to capability is driving this. Not the difficulties of (purely for example) operating both ESSM and MICA-NG within the same fleet…

If RAN gets directed to operate a ship with 32x MICA-NG missiles and a Leonardo 127mm light-weight gun, then that is what RAN will be operating, the RAN brass certainly aren’t going to be dying on the hill of this “complicating logistics and training…” I’ve no doubt such a thing will inform their advice, but if they are directed?

Well, they’ll just grumble and then just get on with it, and “maybe” try and fix things down the track…
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
That is what is so different about this project, that I think many have failed to comprehend. A lot of people are running with the “but such a decision will incur problem X…”

Yes it might, but it doesn’t mean it won’t happen because speed to capability is driving this. Not the difficulties of (purely for example) operating both ESSM and MICA-NG within the same fleet…

If RAN gets directed to operate a ship with 32x MICA-NG missiles and a Leonardo 127mm light-weight gun, then that is what RAN will be operating, the RAN brass certainly aren’t going to be dying on the hill of this “complicating logistics and training…” I’ve no doubt such a thing will inform their advice, but if they are directed?

Well, they’ll just grumble and then just get on with it, and “maybe” try and fix things down the track…
Well actually it will show they have failed to explain the situation, failed to walk the decision makers through what is involved.

A bit part of the problem is the loss or outright lack of knowledge on the APS side of defence. They are the ones who are ment to be explaining it to the politicians but they don't understand it themselves.
 

Underway

Active Member
That is what is so different about this project, that I think many have failed to comprehend. A lot of people are running with the “but such a decision will incur problem X…”

Yes it might, but it doesn’t mean it won’t happen because speed to capability is driving this. Not the difficulties of (purely for example) operating both ESSM and MICA-NG within the same fleet…

If RAN gets directed to operate a ship with 32x MICA-NG missiles and a Leonardo 127mm light-weight gun, then that is what RAN will be operating, the RAN brass certainly aren’t going to be dying on the hill of this “complicating logistics and training…” I’ve no doubt such a thing will inform their advice, but if they are directed?

Well, they’ll just grumble and then just get on with it, and “maybe” try and fix things down the track…
Exactly. People keep throwing around imaginary ships and modifications. Guess what, that's not the project.

The competition is now between the A200 as is and the Mogami 30 as is. With German/Japanese health and safety, ammo storage, fueling, fire fighting etc... and no Australian standards or modifications. No CEA radar system, no increased number of VLS (16 max), no Saab 9LV, etc...

This is a Tier 2 combatant. Its job is to defend itself, monitor air, surface and subsurface and patrol while the Tier 1's go and protect the maritime approaches, support amphib ops etc... It clears up the space for those operations. And because you want them quick and "cheap", changing the design will add cost and time. Australia can do that later when they eventually refit. They need the ships sooner than later. Enemy of good enough is perfect.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Exactly. People keep throwing around imaginary ships and modifications. Guess what, that's not the project.

The competition is now between the A200 as is and the Mogami 30 as is. With German/Japanese health and safety, ammo storage, fueling, fire fighting etc... and no Australian standards or modifications. No CEA radar system, no increased number of VLS (16 max), no Saab 9LV, etc...

This is a Tier 2 combatant. Its job is to defend itself, monitor air, surface and subsurface and patrol while the Tier 1's go and protect the maritime approaches, support amphib ops etc... It clears up the space for those operations. And because you want them quick and "cheap", changing the design will add cost and time. Australia can do that later when they eventually refit. They need the ships sooner than later. Enemy of good enough is perfect.
Wrong, that's what some, including some of those in parliament may think and say, but it is not how it works.

The reason it doesn't work like that is because they and their predecessors decided the RAN had to comply to external requirements and processes.

Those external requirements and processes add complexity and design requirements that have nothing whatsoever to do with capability, let alone adding or incorporating existing systems that will improve capability.

I have seen many a principle engineers face turn purple as transverse requirements are explained to them. The best PEs, or in the old days, Chief Engineers, were the ones who understood this and ensured this work was done before steel was cut, not chasing it around at the last minute.

If you doubt me, just look at the Arafuras compared to the Capes or Armidales.

The Arafuras where an established, in service, overseas design, built by an experienced builder (first pair) to a high standard, and yet have suffered serious delays, not because of the build or the combat system integration, but because nobody was paying attention to transverse requirements, because it was an existing design.

The Capes and Armidales have both had serious performance, quality and safety issues, but had a very easy path into service because they were designed and built to class.

None of this was the RANs choosing.

Now we have armchair experts saying we should follow the project model, less the parts that worked, used on a project of concern, on a highly complex GP frigate and it will all be fine?

The more design input you have, the more aligned the designer, builder and operator are, the fewer miscommunications and surprises.

Simple as that.

The problem has never been the integration of different systems, it has always been lack of communication, lack of trust and change adverse decision makers, who lack the required information to make informed decisions.

The delays with the Hobart's weren't due to Australian changes, they were due to an incomplete, out of date design that was being updated by the builder as work was underway. Things improved dramatically when the designer was brought into the project proper instead of being a disinterested contractor.

The problems with FFGUP were because a third party, who was neither the designer or the builder, was selected to do the design and implementation work.

Ever heard of Dunning Kruger?

I'm not saying the decision makers are stupid, I am saying their lack of knowledge, experience and aptitude is leading them to make incorrect decisions with impacts that continue for decades.

This is why we need to look in detail at old projects, not just the headlines and gut feelings. We need to look at what was done, but also what was not done.

There are no simple answers, and anyone who thinks there is, is deluding themselves.
 
Last edited:

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Looking back at history, the stuff that works well is the stuff that is FMS that we can hook into completely, and then the stuff where we have the most intimate involvement in design and build. Everything that has been subcontracted, even to very experienced and capable entities, has had serious issues.

The less skin you have in the game, and I'm talking about collaborative involvement, not contractual sticks or tax auditor like government oversight, the more issues you have.

When you have people who don't understand what they are being told making decisions, or more to the point are being relied on to communicate this to those making the decisions, you are in trouble. When you have people who instead of helping when there is a problem, take glee in the contractors distress and stick the boot in, you have a problem.

When you have people deciding something can't be done, because they believe it's never been done, because they aren't listening to the people who have actually do it before, you have a problem.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There is no such thing as an “as is” Meko when it comes to weapons systems. What there is is the last example built.

The whole concept is that there is a basic design, with a fairly standard HM&E, to which the customer adds their selected weapons and sensors within the deadweight capacity of the hull, and the power and cooling available. It’s not quite plug and play, but close to it. So without having seen what the TKMS offering is, there is no way of telling what it might be. About the best guess might be the various models they have shown recently.
 
Top