Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[OldTex]

Interesting question
A kinetic response for C-UAS will be mandatory going forward
is this the solution ?
Logistics will be interesting
If correct I think the Boxer and Redback each have a different 30mm gun so do we need another 30 mm round.

As a light weight system it does have appeal

thoughts


Cheers S

The Boxer CRV is fitted with the Mauser Mk30-2/ABM while the AS21 Redback is fitted with the MK44 Bushmaster. Both use 30x173 munitions but there is a question of compatibility. Northrup Grumman claim the MK44 can fire all 30x173 munition types. If that claim is correct then the CRV and IFV use a single ammunition type. The 30x173 firing weapons are mounted in turrets fitted to vehicles with a substantial weight. Both weapons are claimed to fire air burst/proximity fused munitions which can provide a C-UAS capability to the CRV and IFV. But the question is how are the other vehicles to be protected. The 30x113 weapon (M230LF) is more suited to RWS fitted to vehicles like the PMV-M (Bushmasters) and PMV-L (Hawkeis).
Now the AH-64E to be introduced into service uses the M230LF which is a 30x113 based weapon. So the ADF has already made the issue of 30mm munitions a little more complicated.

 

[Stampede]

The Boxer CRV is fitted with the Mauser Mk30-2/ABM while the AS21 Redback is fitted with the MK44 Bushmaster. Both use 30x173 munitions but there is a question of compatibility. Northrup Grumman claim the MK44 can fire all 30x173 munition types. If that claim is correct then the CRV and IFV use a single ammunition type. The 30x173 firing weapons are mounted in turrets fitted to vehicles with a substantial weight. Both weapons are claimed to fire air burst/proximity fused munitions which can provide a C-UAS capability to the CRV and IFV. But the question is how are the other vehicles to be protected. The 30x113 weapon (M230LF) is more suited to RWS fitted to vehicles like the PMV-M (Bushmasters) and PMV-L (Hawkeis).
Now the AH-64E to be introduced into service uses the M230LF which is a 30x113 based weapon. So the ADF has already made the issue of 30mm munitions a little more complicated.

Thanks for the reply
I was of the understanding the 30mm rounds were specific to each vehicle, Boxer and Redback.
30 x 173mm, yet specific to each Bushmaster and Mauser cannon . Not compatible with each other.

Hope I'm wrong.
The Northrup Grumman article suggests the bushmaster is flexible for all munition types.
the Mauser Mk30 not so sure.

Clarity anyone?

Good to point out the M230LF 30x113 is employed on the AH-64.

Regards S

 

[OldTex]

Thanks for the reply
I was of the understanding the 30mm rounds were specific to each vehicle, Boxer and Redback.
30 x 173mm, yet specific to each Bushmaster and Mauser cannon . Not compatible with each other.

Hope I'm wrong.

Good to point out the M230LF 30x113 is employed on the AH-64.

Regards S

I think the devil will be in the detail. It may be as NG claim that all 30x173 munition types can be fired from the MK44S. But that raises 2 questions.
Firstly, can the MK30-2/ABM do the same?
Secondly, firing and fully utilising programmable functions (eg air burst or proximity setting) of the different munitions are 2 different things.
At best Army will have to supply 2 different types of 30mm munitions in the field, at worst it will be 3 different types. What could possibly go wrong? (tongue firmly in cheek)

 

[swerve]

Multiple 30mm would be bad enough, but multiple 30x173 - shudder!

 

[OldTex]

Multiple 30mm would be bad enough, but multiple 30x173 - shudder!

Just think of the Ordnance corp badge!
So what is the solution?
Either confirm that both cannons (MK44S and Mk 30-2) can fully use (fire and programme) the same munitions, or change to a single type of 30mm on both the CRV and the IFV.
It is unlikely that a single 30mm cannon will be usable across all types of platforms (IFV, CRV, PMVs and AHs) for a lot of different reasons. But supplying just 2 types of munitions is better than if nothing is done.

 

[seaspear]

A question for some of the members here ,the war in Ukraine has raised some challenges to previously held doctrine ,there is a suggestion there that "shoot and scoot" from mobile artillery is problematic with the amount of uav,s deployed and that towed artillery concealed in some circumstances are safer ,I can appreciate counter battery fire directed by radar would be dangerous for this thoughts please.

 

[Bob53]

Just think of the Ordnance corp badge!
So what is the solution?
Either confirm that both cannons (MK44S and Mk 30-2) can fully use (fire and programme) the same munitions, or change to a single type of 30mm on both the CRV and the IFV.
It is unlikely that a single 30mm cannon will be usable across all types of platforms (IFV, CRV, PMVs and AHs) for a lot of different reasons. But supplying just 2 types of munitions is better than if nothing is done.

And the chances of swapping out the brand new guns and turrets are…. 000000

 

[old faithful]

A problem that immigration brings to the table in every workforce will rear its head in the ADF at some stage, and that's the fact that English is not the 1st language of a lot of workers.
In my job, there is quite a lot of report writing.
A typical low event incident report should take no more than about 15 minutes. However, in some cases where English is not the 1st language, it can take upwards of an hour or more for some, and then when proof read, another 10 minutes to edit, then have the author check the edit. A 15 minute report can take well over an hour some times multiple hours, if the author sees this as an opportunity to avoid other tasks, which is often the case.
If the initial report is not edited, it reads like a terrible document, and I understand how difficult it must be , as English is a difficult language to write.
Now, my point is this, I did a shift at adept of health facility. There were 17 staff members on duty, 6 from my department. I was the only Australian born member of the 17, and only 3 of us were English as 1st language.
1 in 3 Australians are not born in Australia.
Logistics in the ADF will have more and more mistakes as a result.

 

[seaspear]

A problem that immigration brings to the table in every workforce will rear its head in the ADF at some stage, and that's the fact that English is not the 1st language of a lot of workers.
In my job, there is quite a lot of report writing.
A typical low event incident report should take no more than about 15 minutes. However, in some cases where English is not the 1st language, it can take upwards of an hour or more for some, and then when proof read, another 10 minutes to edit, then have the author check the edit. A 15 minute report can take well over an hour some times multiple hours, if the author sees this as an opportunity to avoid other tasks, which is often the case.
If the initial report is not edited, it reads like a terrible document, and I understand how difficult it must be , as English is a difficult language to write.
Now, my point is this, I did a shift at adept of health facility. There were 17 staff members on duty, 6 from my department. I was the only Australian born member of the 17, and only 3 of us were English as 1st language.
1 in 3 Australians are not born in Australia.
Logistics in the ADF will have more and more mistakes as a result.

Its not just the literacy but the identification of a potential incident and this is just as easily not reported by those whose language is English ,if the P.C.B.U have not properly understood their hazards and risk and communicated as such to their employees and stakeholders , without such any plan of continual improvement as per I.S.O , sometimes the h.r is full of boneheads

 

[Milne Bay]

New life for our older M1A1's
Worthwhile I think
MB

Australia will send 49 old tanks to Ukraine, more than a year after they first asked for them

The announcement was welcomed by Ukraine's ambassador to Australia, Vasyl Myroshnychenko.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Stampede]

New life for our older M1A1's
Worthwhile I think
MB

Australia will send 49 old tanks to Ukraine, more than a year after they first asked for them

The announcement was welcomed by Ukraine's ambassador to Australia, Vasyl Myroshnychenko.

www.abc.net.au

Good for Ukraine and glad the US gave approval for the transfer.
With 49 M1A1's going to Ukraine, what will be the destiny for the remaining 10 of the 59 in inventory.

Parts for Ukraine, Australia, scrap or something else.

If I recall our current purchase is for 122 M1A2's of which 75 are gun tanks.
Also getting 160 hulls including above.

Another 10 power packs and turrets would be a nice addition to our intended fleet.

Cheers S

 

[InterestedParty]

Parts for Ukraine, Australia, scrap or something else.

The ABC702 News keeps referring to them as "aged" and this morning speculated that they would only be fit for parts.
I would be interested to hear form someone who actually knows, what condition they are in.

 

[Stampede]

The ABC702 News keeps referring to them as "aged" and this morning speculated that they would only be fit for parts.
I would be interested to hear form someone who actually knows, what condition they are in.

Apparently 49 are old enough to be sent to a war zone.!!!!

The other 10 ??????

Regrads S

 

[Redlands18]

Apparently 49 are old enough to be sent to a war zone.!!!!

The other 10 ??????

Regrads S

Army Museum Puckapunyal (australianarmytankmuseum.com.au)
The Tank Museum at Puckapunyal might get one.

 

[CJR]

Apparently 49 are old enough to be sent to a war zone.!!!!

The other 10 ??????

Regrads S

Possibly kept in the short term while the rest of the M1A2s arrive and then sent? Alternatively at the moment the army still has a handful of Leopard 1s on the books for training purposes, 6-8 for that role plus one to the AWM and one to Puckapunyal?

 

[Bob53]

Good for Ukraine and glad the US gave approval for the transfer.
With 49 M1A1's going to Ukraine, what will be the destiny for the remaining 10 of the 59 in inventory.

Parts for Ukraine, Australia, scrap or something else.

If I recall our current purchase is for 122 M1A2's of which 75 are gun tanks.
Also getting 160 hulls including above.

Another 10 power packs and turrets would be a nice addition to our intended fleet.

Cheers S

Remaining 10 being kept in service till all new ones are in service. What happens to them after that? Probably Ukraine I’d guess.

 

[Bob53]

Good for Ukraine and glad the US gave approval for the transfer.
With 49 M1A1's going to Ukraine, what will be the destiny for the remaining 10 of the 59 in inventory.

Parts for Ukraine, Australia, scrap or something else.

If I recall our current purchase is for 122 M1A2's of which 75 are gun tanks.
Also getting 160 hulls including above.

Another 10 power packs and turrets would be a nice addition to our intended fleet.

Cheers S

Are you sure On the numbers? I thought it was 122 hulls total which allows a for the engineering and recovery vehicles and about a dozen kept in reserve as spares and for offline maintenance and training.

 

[Aardvark144]

Are you sure On the numbers? I thought it was 122 hulls total which allows a for the engineering and recovery vehicles and about a dozen kept in reserve as spares and for offline maintenance and training.

Excerpt from the notice to Congress - The Government of Australia has requested to buy one hundred sixty (160) M1A1 Tank structures/hulls provided from stock in order to produce the following end items and spares: seventy-five (75) M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams Main Battle Tanks; twenty-nine (29) M1150 Assault Breacher Vehicles; eighteen (18) M1074 Joint Assault Bridges; six (6) M88A2 Hercules Combat Recovery Vehicles; and one hundred twenty-two (122) AGT1500 gas turbine engines. Also included is development of a unique armor package, Common Remotely Operated Weapon Station Low Profile (CROWS-LP), Driver’s Vision Enhancer, mission equipment, special tools and test equipment, ground support equipment, system and engine spare parts, technical data, publications, Modification Work Orders/Engineering Change Proposals (MWO/ECPs), U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics assistance, quality assurance teams, transportation services, program management, New Equipment Training (NET); and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated value is $1.685 billion

 

[Stampede]

Are you sure On the numbers? I thought it was 122 hulls total which allows a for the engineering and recovery vehicles and about a dozen kept in reserve as spares and for offline maintenance and training.

Just my interpretation from this 2021 ADM article.

Tank upgrade trundles onwards - Australian Defence Magazine

In late April, the US State Department approved the sale to Australia of 160 M1A1 tank hulls from stock. Those frames will be used to produce the ADF's next tank fleet.

www.australiandefence.com.au

.


Cheers S

 

[Stampede]

Excerpt from the notice to Congress - The Government of Australia has requested to buy one hundred sixty (160) M1A1 Tank structures/hulls provided from stock in order to produce the following end items and spares: seventy-five (75) M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams Main Battle Tanks; twenty-nine (29) M1150 Assault Breacher Vehicles; eighteen (18) M1074 Joint Assault Bridges; six (6) M88A2 Hercules Combat Recovery Vehicles; and one hundred twenty-two (122) AGT1500 gas turbine engines. Also included is development of a unique armor package, Common Remotely Operated Weapon Station Low Profile (CROWS-LP), Driver’s Vision Enhancer, mission equipment, special tools and test equipment, ground support equipment, system and engine spare parts, technical data, publications, Modification Work Orders/Engineering Change Proposals (MWO/ECPs), U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics assistance, quality assurance teams, transportation services, program management, New Equipment Training (NET); and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated value is $1.685 billion

Timing!!!!!!!