Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

swerve

Super Moderator
... What is a bit less clear is that whilst the GlobalEye platform is new, with the first flight taking place in 2018, it is less clear how new the Erieye radar design fitted aboard the GlobalEye platform. The Erieye radar was developed under a Swedish contract with Ericcson dating back to the mid-1980's, and versions of the radar have been fitted to a number of different aircraft like the Saab 340, Saab 2000, Embraer R-99/EMB-145 and now Global 6000/GlobalEye. AFAIK the first Erieye radar set entered service with the Swedish AF in 1996, fitted to twin prop Saab 340 airliner and known as the S-100 Argus. I would be quite surprised if there had not been improvements upon the radar array's capabilities over the years but I would not at this point consider it a 'new' radar design. ...
From what I've read, Erieye ER seems a grandfather's axe version of Erieye. It looks the same (fits the same housing) but there may not be much left of the original radar. The TRMs are all new, GaN instead of GaAs, for a start, & the back end hardware has been updated. Software? Who knows? SAAB says both maximum range & ability to detect small targets are improved considerably.

It was reported a few years ago that Brazil was replacing the Erieye radars in its E-99 AEW aircraft with Erieye ER, BTW.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
From what I've read, Erieye ER seems a grandfather's axe version of Erieye. It looks the same (fits the same housing) but there may not be much left of the original radar. The TRMs are all new, GaN instead of GaAs, for a start, & the back end hardware has been updated. Software? Who knows? SAAB says both maximum range & ability to detect small targets are improved considerably.

It was reported a few years ago that Brazil was replacing the Erieye radars in its E-99 AEW aircraft with Erieye ER, BTW.
This gets into one of those areas where unfortunately there really just is not sufficient information out in the public domain to determine certain things.

One way I tend to look at the relationship between the original Ericsson Erieye radar to consider whether the relationship is like that of the F-15's APG-63, with the newer Erieye ER radar being more like the APG-63(V)1 or is it more like APG-63(V)2 or even APG-63(V)3. Unfortunately we just cannot really tell from what is out in circulation.

This also makes attempts to compare with the Northrop Grumman MESA fitted to the E-7 rather tricksy, because there is little we know for certain with that either. The operating band (IEEE L-band) is known, as is the basic frequency range. We know that it was developed as an Electronically Scanned Array. We also know that the arrangement of T/R modules in the radome 'top hat' is such that 360 degree coverage is provided. What kind of T/R modules are being used, how many, what their individual and/or collective RF power out is, etc. These are all things we do not know.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
This also makes attempts to compare with the Northrop Grumman MESA fitted to the E-7 rather tricksy, because there is little we know for certain with that either. The operating band (IEEE L-band) is known, as is the basic frequency range. We know that it was developed as an Electronically Scanned Array. We also know that the arrangement of T/R modules in the radome 'top hat' is such that 360 degree coverage is provided. What kind of T/R modules are being used, how many, what their individual and/or collective RF power out is, etc. These are all things we do not know.
Defence platforms are often a function of how much money and resources are thrown at them, as much as they are size, number of weapons, man power etc.

E7 seems to be selected by pretty much all the top tier technology operators, and seems to have a lot of money being thrown at it and projects around it, by some of the largest defence spenders on the planet, who are dealing with the greatest threats. It is a maturing program, of decades, and combat proven. Grumman has a fair bit of radar experience and has access to a lot of the US technology tree in this area.

Not sure if the services have added ridiculous requirement changes from the designs already in service with Australia, Turkey and S. Korea, or if Boeing is trying to pad the invoice. Honestly I suspect it is at least a bit of both.

The newer aircraft and those AUKUS nations are very different aircraft configurations from the original E7 spec. Consoles, software, processing, coms are all very, very different. Its essentially a fork in the E7 development. The US kind of is using the basic E7 platform, but is supersizing, modernising every aspect of it (which was already very good and very capable), which UK is incorporating many aspects, and Australia is updating many aspects, the 3 seek commonality. No one else is in that grouping. The consoles now have two screens instead of one, they are already in Australian aircraft and US and UK ones are following suit. Technology sharing between those partners is very easy. Turkey on the other hand may not be able to acquire those upgrades, and SK may not be interested in those upgrades. Particularly because both operate small fleets, and significant upgrades right now, would see that fleet essentially become grounded.

The US can sort of afford this, because the existing E7 is there as a fall back. If ambitious software plans don't quite workout, then the existing software will do the job. But the US very, very much wants advanced features. Ukraine operations highlight how far the E3 is from being able to work in the modern battlefield, and how the E7 is absolutely an excellent fit.

E-2s are very much their own thing. SK and JP has E2s. They just bought more. But they aren't exactly cheap either. They are possibly more suited for ocean work, operating from short island/mountain fields, that things like E3's or E767 would be difficult to operate out of. But the 737 is better in that regard than E3 or 767s..

Oh it would be fun to be on a E2 flying over Canadian artic land for many hours, in a E2, as a job.. I would be talking to E2 operators and users about that. Israel and Singapore can explain why even with conscription, finding people willing to do that can be hard. Long hummers can be uncomfortable. Particularly if allies are microwaving toasties wearing fluffy slippers while playing texas holdem on longer missions. Perhaps with Canada's drive for social liberalisim, it will attract more people with S & M fetishes into the military.

Again Australia operates Tritons in that space. Each piece of equipment is kind a designed around different needs. It is at sea search and rescue and coordination required? E7 can and do operate at sea.. But surface scanning large sections of ocean and ocean air, are probably better done by triton. Particularly if there aren't any other manned platforms around in a remote space.

For areas where you have a lot going on the E7 with just a few other assets can provide real presence.

1714983191215.png

IMO Canada considering the E7 is also part of Canada considering AUKUS type membership. Pillar 2 or what ever they want to call it. There isn't really a huge security concern with Canada, but there are definitely world view, and defence spending issues. I guess it also depends on what sort of capability they think they will need, and where.

IMO as rich middle power, in the near Austro-Anglo-American alliance club, E7 would be the benchmark. And I would be following where the Americans are throwing mega bucks at a platform, particularly when its cheap to operate, and affordable to buy. Americans are pretty much kings of software integration, and on a platform where integration is everything, would seem like a pretty easy fit.

After all why buy F-35's if you are going to go with non-integrated command and control platforms, vectoring 5th gen aircraft with morse code coordinates pilots plot on paper maps.

But I am going to hose myself off and keep out of this discussion. Dealing with Canadians, I feel all sticky from maple syrup..
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
One liners aren't allowed. Neither is baiting mods.. I reserve the right too reapproach the situation at any time.

I hope my absence allows free and ranging discussion about Canadian air force issues, in a productive, informative, friendly way. Hopefully allowing Canadians to form real productive and achievable strong decisions as part of their learning journey and inform wider public discussion within Canada to support their world view and their place within it.

I will try to sit in the corner observing. Abiding by my prime directive as best as I can.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I am going to put the AEW discussion on my back burner. There are simply too many unknown variables within the evaluation equation along with the weighting applied to these variables, price, performance, Canadian content, and long term sustainability. The biggest variable is pollies C-Fing the whole program. Improving the public perception, I think I have expressed my opinion on that!
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
E-2s are very much their own thing. SK and JP has E2s. They just bought more. But they aren't exactly cheap either. They are possibly more suited for ocean work, operating from short island/mountain fields, that things like E3's or E767 would be difficult to operate out of. But the 737 is better in that regard than E3 or 767s..
...
AFAIK South Korea has no E-2s, & has never had any. Taiwan has some. I think Japan uses its E-2s as you say, operating from its many islands & dispersed across the country. It's been gradually replacing E-2C by E-2D.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
AFAIK South Korea has no E-2s, & has never had any. Taiwan has some. I think Japan uses its E-2s as you say, operating from its many islands & dispersed across the country. It's been gradually replacing E-2C by E-2D.
Yes, terrible work on my part. I think I got triggered by them operating S2's, which for some reason in my brain I lump together with E2's..

Pretty much every E2 Hawkeye user has a very strict reason why they are using that particular platform and not alternatives. Japan has E767, the E2 fill a specific need in that space. Taiwan uses E2's for similar reasons. E2's are not a comfort plane.

SK, a current E7 users, however is ordering more new AEW aircraft... Their project seems several years into it, and are assessing E7, Globaleye, IAI..


The AEW space actually does move, so a lot of existing platforms will need to be upgraded or acquired for future capability. How you command and control a battlespace full of smart low observables? is a very big question, particularly when platforms and munitions are self guiding, deploying sub munitions and decoys and making their own complex decisions on flight paths, based on threats only the munition can see, and no one is communicating and the air is thick with EW etc.

Back in my box..
 

Delta204

Active Member
The AEW space actually does move, so a lot of existing platforms will need to be upgraded or acquired for future capability. How you command and control a battlespace full of smart low observables? is a very big question, particularly when platforms and munitions are self guiding, deploying sub munitions and decoys and making their own complex decisions on flight paths, based on threats only the munition can see, and no one is communicating and the air is thick with EW etc.

Back in my box..
It is perhaps one of the most challenging problems facing modern militaries and air forces; I would imagine we will see networks of AEW systems being put into place. E7 would be one piece and probably a very major component of any such network. But I wonder if we may see renewed interest in other platforms that can deliver this type of capability? I recall the US JLENS program that came to a grinding halt a number of years ago after a few mishaps, but maybe it was just a few years ahead of its time? It appeared to be geared towards "traditional" threats like cruise missiles but I would imagine it would also be very effective at detection and perhaps even defence against the new kind of threats we are talking about here. The ability to have sensors and AEW capability deployed in this type of persistent and sustained manner will be very valuable.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
In Australia's situation, the E7 is just an element, but a very key one. JORN provides massive coverage, but not tactical data, underwater systems, triton, and other sensors help form a complete battlespace awareness.

E7 is one of the platforms that fuses all of this and can offer in theatre command and control, and can almost directly communicate and see everything. It can fuse incomplete or inconclusive data from different sensors, which is why its processing capability requires so much power and space, even though computers are much faster and more efficient. Its the sensible platform to update long range munitions and process data, observe most threats and coordinate multidomain weapons and systems.

Weapons like JASSM-ER and LRASM and TLAM, and hypersonics, Aim-260. Weapons that are launched BVR, hitting mobile and low observable targets and avoid other hostile systems and counter measures.

Firing Aim260 off randomly into clouds won't be very effective, unless you know where the enemy is. Also counter measures may no longer be last second launches, but launched BVR as well. There is no point in acquiring LRASM or AIM-260 or platforms that can fire them, unless you have the capability to use them effectively.

Then there is the issue of integrating different systems, different battlespace management Systems, particularly LAND into existing AIR and SEA platforms. Which is probably the bigger challenge. There are AEW platforms, but integrating them into other arms battlespace management systems is tricky. Different even close working services, have very different priorities. Airforce wants it on a plane, Navy wants it on ship and Armies typically want something on things like tanks and helicopters. Fitting something like Aegis/E7 CEC on a Tank is just not possible. Some platforms just don't have power/space, and not ideal for in theatre broadcasting centers because they aren't agile, located close to enemy, low horizon etc.
Every platform sensors are fed into the system, and the hive is essentially aware of everything.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Sweden's been doing integrated battlespace management for 60 years. More recently, but still for quite a long time, its datalinks have allowed a fighter wth its radar switched off to fire a BVR AAM at a target illuminated by another platform - another fighter, an AEW aircraft (when they entered service) or whatever. Of course, the technology's vastly more advanced now than in the 1960s, or even the 1990s.
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sweden's been doing integrated battlespace management for 60 years. More recently, but still for quite a long time, its datalinks have allowed a fighter wth its radar switched off to fire a BVR AAM at a target illuminated by another platform - another fighter, an AEW aircraft (when they entered service) or whatever. Of course, the technology's vastly more advanced now than in the 1960s, or even the 1990s.
Out of interest has the GlobalEye been fitted with Link16/22 yet? I would imagine CEC wouldn't be on the cards anytime soon. Cheers.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Since Gripen's been fitted with Link 16 & SAAB advertises Globaleye as having (if customer's allowed to have them & is willing to pay, presumably) Link 11/16/22 should be fitted.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Since Gripen's been fitted with Link 16 & SAAB advertises Globaleye as having (if customer's allowed to have them & is willing to pay, presumably) Link 11/16/22 should be fitted.
If I read the info on Link 22 correctly, it would not be something that Saab could include, but it might be possible for a purchasing nation to possibly acquire Link 22 and pay the development costs to have it integrated.

As I understand it, Link 22 was/is intended to be an improvement upon and replacement for Link 11, whilst providing complimentary capabilities for Link 16. Further, Link 22 was a bit of a joint programme between seven NATO member-states which were referred to NILE, with the Netherlands originally having been one of the seven before either dropping out or being removed, and ultimately replaced by Spain. It does appear that Third Party Nations can acquire Link 22, but that would be a NILE nation to third party nation sale, and not a commercial purchase. This does make quite a bit of sense given that the US is one of the NILE nations and IIRC also is the program manager/prime for Link 22 and it seems sensible if third party nation sales might be conducted in fashion similar to how FMS works for US military kit.

On a related note, I am uncertain which nations apart from the NILE nations and perhaps Australia might even have or intend to use Link 22, it certainly does not appear to be as ubiquitous as either Link 11 or Link 1. It is distinctly possible that Globaleye might never have Link 22 integrated, because the nations that end up operating the Globaleye or preceding Erieye AEW platforms might never adopt Link 22.

Out of interest has the GlobalEye been fitted with Link16/22 yet? I would imagine CEC wouldn't be on the cards anytime soon. Cheers.
Similarly (and IMO potentially more even more likely) I suspect that CEC is not something one would see integrated into Globaleye anytime soon, if ever. CEC itself is primarily a USN network programme with some participation across other US services and interest from some other nations, namely Japan and Australia. AFAIK there is little to no crossover between nations interested in the CEC program and those adopting the Globaleye platform. This to me suggests that there would be little or no pressure felt by the USN to have Globaleye integrated with CEC.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group

Sender

Active Member
No idea how capable this package is relative to a E-7. Price, NORAD considerations, capability, trade considerations, and politics are all factors. All are important but a Trump 2nd term might favour an E-7.
Still though, France chose it "over competitors like Boeing's Wedgetail E-7A". That does suggest quite strongly that the French view this as a very capable platform, and should not be ruled out as an option for Canada's AEW project because of any perceptions about the clear superiority of the E-7. With regards to the questions about Link 22 posted earlier, France (and Canada) was one of the development nations for this technology, virtually guaranteeing it will be included in the GlobalEye.

.
 

Sender

Active Member
I don't believe so, and that is one definite advantage of the E7.
However, unrefueled range advantage would appear to go to the GlobalEye. The Wedgetail, from the sources I could find, seems to have a maximum range of ~3500nm. That makes sense, because it is based on the 737-700ER, with some loss attributable to drag from the radar and other "protrusions". I have found no ranges published for the GlobalEye, but the Global 6500 upon which it is based has a range of 6600 nm. Even assuming a loss to drag from the radar of 1000nm, it would still outrange the Wedgetail, so AAR may not be as big an issue, given Canada is looking to buy these for Arctic patrols within Canada only.

 
Top