Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
I’m aware that Austal is not involved with the Arafura build…
Both Landing craft and GPF are steel, Austal does not do steel, the prototype landing craft medium was built down the road at Echo Marine.
Question I’m asking is if austal/designer(Birdon/incat crowther/overseas tbd) will subcontract all the steel fab and pipe work to civmec and do fit out in a new hall (possibly next to bae?)
Guardian Class Patrol Boat (Austal Patrol 40) | Austal: Corporate
Austal have been building steel hulled vessels for the Pacific Patrol Boat Replacement Project since around 2018. Now that program is complete, I would think the LMV-M will be built by the same workers in the same facility.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Sorry Reptilia, my bad on the Arafura question.

Yea Echo did the prototype, and if my memory serves me correctly, were the preferred partner for Birdon at the time. I think Austal went with BMT (I could be wrong here). The government however stepped in and selected Birdon and Austal, so broke them up and did a shotgun wedding. This was about the time Austal obtained the strategic partnership with the government (aka guarantee of work). I'm not sure why the government liked the Birdon design over the BMT one.

From what I've heard, they will do the build themselves in their own sheds. Austal made the strategic decision to switch their US yard over to steel a little while ago for the USN and Coastguard workload. The same I would view will occur for their WA yard. Other than ongoing evolved capes, I doubt they will make another aluminium build in Henderson again.

I would suggest that the landing craft (medium and heavy) are Austal's lead in steal build learner for the GPFs. And the government's check to make sure they have backed the right horse.

$100 bucks that the government funds a new shed for the GPFs adjacent to Austal, possibly on the north side, and leases it to Austal. This will be part of the $8 billion war chest set aside for Henderson and Garden Island. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to put my money where my mouth is.
 
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Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Sorry Reptilia, my bad on the Arafura question.

Yea Echo did the prototype, and if my memory serves me correctly, were the preferred partner for Birdon at the time. I think Austal went with BMT (I could be wrong here). The government however stepped in and selected Birdon and Austal, so broke them up and did a shotgun wedding. This was about the time Austal obtained the strategic partnership with the government (aka guarantee of work). I'm not sure why the government liked the Birdon design over the BMT one.

From what I've heard, they will do the build themselves in their own sheds. Austal made the strategic decision to switch their US yard over to steel a little while ago for the USN and Coastguard workload. The same I would view will occur for their WA yard. Other than ongoing evolved capes, I doubt they will make another aluminium build in Henderson again.

I would suggest that the landing craft (medium and heavy) are Austal's lead in steal build learner for the GPFs. And the government's check to make sure they have backed the right horse.

$100 bucks that the government funds a new shed for the GPFs adjacent to Austal, possibly on the north side, and leases it to Austal. This will be part of the $8 billion war chest set aside for Henderson and Garden Island. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to put my money where my mouth is.
If Austal is the sole builder, no doubt those lots north end up as the future yard, not really a lot of space for a large frigate build… The other lots throughout the precinct have already been sold off or reserved for relocation of other builders.
Mighty close to the public boat ramp…

All those builds going to austal overlap on the timeline, my assumption is when silveryachts moves, a new hall will be built in its place and that’s where the fit out will happen for the the frigates. North of austal or civmec, potentially landing craft medium/heavy and LOSVs. Capes in the current shed.

The first landing craft medium is expected to be delivered in 2026, a new shipyard will take many years to build.

Nothing has really changed from the plan layed out in 2020.


Screenshot of the planned precinct.
 

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SammyC

Well-Known Member
The Collins class LOTE will proceed but, without the optronics & Tomahawk upgrades.

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au...-next-phase-collins-class-life-type-extension
Thanks Boeing. No big suprise on the Tomahawk decision. The missile is almost bigger than the boat.

I think the optronics upgrade was worth about $300-400m by itself, so substantial saving by cancelling this part. I know the existing masts are high maintenance, but they are functional from what I understand.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
If Austal is the sole builder, no doubt those lots north end up as the future yard, not really a lot of space for a large frigate build… The other lots throughout the precinct have already been sold off or reserved for relocation of other builders.
Mighty close to the public boat ramp…

All those builds going to austal overlap on the timeline, my assumption is when silveryachts moves, a new hall will be built in its place and that’s where the fit out will happen for the the frigates. North of austal or civmec, potentially landing craft medium/heavy and LOSVs. Capes in the current shed.

The first landing craft medium is expected to be delivered in 2026, a new shipyard will take many years to build.

Nothing has really changed from the plan layed out in 2020.


Screenshot of the planned precinct.
The government committed to releasing an updated ship building plan later this year, which should answer a lot of where, what and when questions. I would hope it also provides clearer guidance on the plan for the Henderson facility. At the moment congested, unsecure and messy comes to mind. Additionally the government are playing their cards very close to their chest.

Stirling is too small for the future RAN fleet size, plus future USN needs, so it makes sense to move all maintenance (docking and alongside) to the Henderson precinct. This frees up Stirling for ships either visiting, preparing for deployment or in R&R.

Henderson Defence areas are however all mixed in with commercial areas, and it doesn't make for easy security. I think this is already a problem with the existing Henderson Naval presence, but will be a substantial requirement when the SSNs arrive. At the moment its not clear to me how this will be enforced, particularly for SSN drydock maintenance. Stirling requires a security upgrade for the SSNs, and its an order of magnitude better than Henderson.

I would have thought BAE upgrades their synchrolift to take Hunters so all surface ship docking work goes through them. Likewise berths 1, 2 and 3 plus the future 7 and 8 (proposed finger pier) get consolidated and become exclusive for Naval surface ship maintenance. A lot more shore facilities (workshops and offices) would be needed to enable this and I think the common user space to the east (where the big movable shed is) would need to be reclaimed for defence only. This way BAE and the RAN have adjacent plots and it becomes a dedicated Defence area with no common user components, big fences and guard dogs.

The northern common user area (north of Echo Marine), the common user area infront of Civmec (the big laydown pad), plus wharfs 5 and 6 (the two southern ones) could be redeveloped for commercial purposes.

Silver yachts, being Chinese owned would need to move, and there is a plan for them to relocate to one of the northern common user lots. Mind you I haven't heard anything on this for a while and it is no longer listed on Development WA's website. ASC would need some space to concurrently maintain Colins and SSNs, so perhaps they get the Silverlake area.

I don't like where the proposed drydock is going in front of Civmec and right at the entrance to the precinct. I cannot see how that could be secured for SSN maintenance. I would view this would be better located where the existing floating dock is, and the floating dock moved to the south as part of wharf 5 and 6. That gives Defence berth 4 plus the all land infront of ASC. This then nicely buts up to the above RAN and BAE areas, and they can share guard dogs.

With this plan, Defence has the area from the north end of BAE through to the south side of ASC as exclusive for Naval ship and submarine maintenance.

Lastly that leaves Austal and future ship building. My view is that the vacant lots to Austal's north make sense. Small Naval vessels can continue to be made in Austal's existing sheds (patrol boats and landing craft medium), with larger vessels (GPFs and landing craft heavy) in new larger sheds on the vacant land. LOCSVs could be made in either, depending on the eventual size. Austal will need to have some slipping or lifting capacity as well, as it is a long way down to the BAE synchrolift to launch a new big ship.

There is an option for Austal to build these new facilities themselves (similar to their US yard investment plan), or the government builds it and leases it back for projects (much like Osborne In SA).

The heavy landing craft start in 2028 on the current schedule, so they will need a facility in time for these builds. It should then roll straight into a GPF build from the early 30's. You are right Reptilia, there is a good chance these may overlap. Need a bigger shed.

Again I could be wrong and I have no inside knowledge, but there is a lot of money allocated to the FBW and Henderson redevelopment ($8 billion), and that does buy a lot of stuff. It also aligns with the government's acknowledgement that Defence needs to be consolidated in Henderson.
 
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Reptilia

Well-Known Member
The government committed to releasing an updated ship building plan later this year, which should answer a lot of where, what and when questions. I would hope it also provides clearer guidance on the plan for the Henderson facility. At the moment congested, unsecure and messy comes to mind. Additionally the government are playing their cards very close to their chest.

Stirling is too small for the future RAN fleet size, plus future USN needs, so it makes sense to move all maintenance (docking and alongside) to the Henderson precinct. This frees up Stirling for ships either visiting, preparing for deployment or in R&R.

Henderson Defence areas are however all mixed in with commercial areas, and it doesn't make for easy security. I think this is already a problem with the existing increased Henderson Naval presence, but will be a substantial requirement when the SSNs arrive. At the moment its not clear to me how this will be enforced, particularly for SSN drydock maintenance. Stirling requires a security upgrade for the SSNs, and its an order of magnitude better than Henderson.

I would have thought BAE upgrades their synchrolift to take Hunters so all surface ship docking work goes through them. Likewise berths 1, 2 and 3 plus the future 7 and 8 (proposed finger pier) get consolidated and become exclusive for Naval surface ship maintenance. A lot more shore facilities (workshops and offices) would be needed to enable this and I think the common user space to the east (where the big movable shed is) would need to be reclaimed for defence only. This way BAE and the RAN have adjacent plots and it becomes a dedicated Defence area with no common user components, big fences and guard dogs.

The northern common user area (north of Echo Marine), the common user area infront of Civmec (the big laydown pad), plus wharfs 5 and 6 (the two southern ones) could be redeveloped for commercial purposes.

Silver yachts, being Chinese owned would need to move, and there is a plan for them to relocate to one of the northern common user lots. Mind you I haven't heard anything on this for a while and it is no longer listed on Development WA's website. ASC would need some space to concurrently maintain Colins and SSNs, so perhaps they get the Silverlake area.

I don't like where the proposed drydock is going in front of Civmec and right at the entrance to the precinct. I cannot see how that could be secured for SSN maintenance. I would view this would be better located where the existing floating dock is, and the floating dock moved to the south as part of wharf 5 and 6. That gives Defence berth 4 plus the all land infront of ASC. This then nicely buts up to the above RAN and BAE areas, and they can share guard dogs.

With this plan, Defence has the area from the north end of BAE through to the south side of ASC as exclusive for Naval ship and submarine maintenance.

Lastly that leaves Austal and future ship building. My view is that the vacant lots to Austal's north make sense. Small Naval vessels can continue to be made in Austal's existing sheds (patrol boats and landing craft medium), with larger vessels (GPFs and landing craft heavy) in new larger sheds on the vacant land. LOCSVs could be made in either, depending on the eventual size. Austal will need to have some slipping or lifting capacity as well, as it is a long way down to the BAE synchrolift to launch a new big ship.

There is an option for Austal to build these new facilities themselves (similar to their US yard investment plan), or the government builds it and leases it back for projects (much like Osborne In SA).

The heavy landing craft start in 2028 on the current schedule, so they will need a facility in time for these builds. It should then roll straight into a GPF build from the early 30's. You are right Reptilia, there is a good chance these may overlap. Need a bigger shed.

Again I could be wrong and I have no inside knowledge, but there is a lot of money allocated to the FBW and Henderson redevelopment ($8 billion), and that does buy a lot of stuff. It also aligns with the government's acknowledgement that Defence needs to be consolidated in Henderson.
Moving all of Austal - South of BAE into a new much larger facility and turning the North Harbour into the commercial precinct would make alot more sense imo.
Civmec far south, defence / shipbuilding / ship-submarine sustainment central(south harbour), commercial+ boat ramp (north harbour) and then you can gate off the inlet either side and fence and secure the breakwater that surrounds the defence area.

Defence lot would be approx 700m x 400m incorporating BAE/Babcock/HII and Austal all west of Ship Zero.
 
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SammyC

Well-Known Member
Yep, that could work too. The businesses would need to be efficient with their space (maybe the carparks go multi story), but it would be a lot neater.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
I should note that Austal would likely need something comparable to the Civmec and Osborne facilities for the LCH, GPF and LOCSV program, covering a main assembly shed for a minimum two frigate sized construction hulls, a steel cutting, module and pipe fabrication shed, and a paint shed, plus the various office and warehousing sheds. So they will need some leg room.
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
To your point spoz, my understanding is that the Swan class DEs , the Adelaide class FFGs, and lastly the Hobart class DDGs (the steam powered ones), were all purchased largely unchanged from the parent design. So this strategy of "as is procurement" is not a new concept.
Sorry no

The Swan and Torrens shared the DNA of the UK Leander class but wer different in both lay our and some of the weapon systems. The last two river class:
  • Used different radars
  • Used different combat systems (in so far as M22 and M44 could be consider as such)
  • Had no helo facilities
  • Retained the 10" duck gun (ASW morter) to the end of their life
  • Had a differen guindace system for Sea Cat (M44)
  • Were designed at the outset for Ikara and were bettter arranged to support it.
  • Were laid out differently internal compared to the UK Leanders.
So no, quite a few changes
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Fair point and I stand corrected.

If I may rephrase the comment, if we go back to the first of the river class, being Parramatta and Yarra, were they close copies of their parent design?
 
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Wombat000

Well-Known Member
In relation to the GP Frigate baseline design being sought ‘as is’, do we think it’s fair, practical and perhaps logical to have subsequent numbers (domestic builds onwards) more adapted and built to Australian operating standards and systems?

thinking that the extra lead times of second and subsequent ‘tranche‘ numbers might afford some time for adaptation, yet not disrupting the urgency of the initial hulls in-service time.

this would then imply the initial overseas ‘tranche’ being unique in Australian service, until opportunity to refit or off-load them.
(perhaps the degree of commonality of the selected design might be more than pessimistically expected anyway?).

i hope that this will be the case, and think it most likely will happen.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Fair point and I stand corrected.

If I may rephrase the comment, if we go back to the first of the river class, being Parramatta and Yarra, were they close copies of their parent design?
Reasonably, as originally completed. However, they had different search radars, better airconditioning and revised accommodation arrangements. Derwent and Stuart then diverged further; and as noted Swan and Torrens shared little except the hull form and main machinery with the Leanders. But that is the point; we had the capability to successfully alter those ships to our requirements.(And at the same time as we were designing and building Stalwart.)

Further back, Anzac and Tobruk had different armament to the British Battles and their bridges were one deck higher as a result. The Darings had better airconditioning and accommodation, and increased electrical capacity, etc, etc.
 

Armchair

Active Member
In relation to the GP Frigate baseline design being sought ‘as is’, do we think it’s fair, practical and perhaps logical to have subsequent numbers (domestic builds onwards) more adapted and built to Australian operating standards and systems?

thinking that the extra lead times of second and subsequent ‘tranche‘ numbers might afford some time for adaptation, yet not disrupting the urgency of the initial hulls in-service time.

this would then imply the initial overseas ‘tranche’ being unique in Australian service, until opportunity to refit or off-load them.
(perhaps the degree of commonality of the selected design might be more than pessimistically expected anyway?).

i hope that this will be the case, and think it most likely will happen.
As others have suggested earlier that would seem pretty normal In shipbuilding terms but I think we will have to wait and see what “as is” turns out to be. Despite public statements suggesting otherwise I can’t imagine the Alfa or Meko being offered with Saudi and Egyptian system choices but we don’t even know if those options are close to being in contention.

If either Daegu or FFM is selected then it may be that the later flights would be designed to be in lockstep with Korea or Japan in 2032 rather than legacy RAN systems (which would come with cost and benefits).

The pessimist in me says whatever is decided will be redesigned slowly and expensively.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
As others have suggested earlier that would seem pretty normal In shipbuilding terms but I think we will have to wait and see what “as is” turns out to be. Despite public statements suggesting otherwise I can’t imagine the Alfa or Meko being offered with Saudi and Egyptian system choices but we don’t even know if those options are close to being in contention.
Its about speed, its about risk management.

The ship builders might be able to put together a combo they know works, elsewhere, or is extremely likely to work with minimal development requirements.

For the Korean/Japanese ships, that is pretty straight forward. For the Europeans, its a bit more open. Both have worked and integrated 9LV into things. Some of this will also depend on the design.

I don't think anyone is going to be unhappy. We are now entering a global arms race, other countries are possibly considering similar options. Its entirely possible that all designs are built, just not by Australia.
If either Daegu or FFM is selected then it may be that the later flights would be designed to be in lockstep with Korea or Japan in 2032 rather than legacy RAN systems (which would come with cost and benefits).
We could get a ship, operate it for a few years, then swap it for a newer model with exactly the layout we need. This would allow crews to get familiar with every other aspect of the ship, training, simulations, logistics, etc. Those things take years. We need ships.

I would believe the Spanish, the Japanese and the Koreans could offer something from the same class, or the previous class, or a comparable ship. While I think the Asian nations are probably best placed, there is a real strategic thing happening right now. We will want doable options from each of the Europeans as backup alternatives. If things get derailed by conflict before things get underway.

Also this ship doesn't have to be the ubership of the sea. We have Hunter. We have Hobarts. This is about value for time, money, crew.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Does anyone else think we may get more than 3 GPFs built overseas?
-1 delivered by 2029 and in service in 2030, 2 additional ships by 2034 is the current plan.
To build a frigate of any size in w.a, surely it would take a minimum 6+ years for the first.
If the Austal build begins in 2029/2030, hard to see us getting the first GPF in service before 2034.
Navantia/Mitsubishi/Hyundai/Hanwha/TKMS could easily build us more than 3 frigates before 2034.

2024-2034

DC -(after 28 years approx)
Arunta-2026
Warramunga-2029
Stuart-2030
Parramatta-2031
Ballarat-2032
Toowoomba-2033
Perth-2034

C
GPF 1-2030
GPF 2-2032
GPF 3-2034
Hunter 1-2034

Just 4 frigates in 2034/2035 before it begins to rise by 1 frigate a year from then on.(GPF or Hunter)
An extra 1 or 2 built overseas is probably required?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
A bit O/T for this thread but this link is another example of what can happen with design changes. Not sure whether Hunter or CSC are facing the same modification challenges, guessing yes.
Sub brief has a full break down video as well on youtube about Constellation.

1717637612949.png

It highlights why if you are going with and Inservice design, you can't go around completely customizing it. Particularly while you are building the ship. Also tier 2 is basically a gap filler. Lets learn from our mistakes and other mistakes.

The crisis with the US ship building will put more pressure on Australia and other allies to get moving. As the US is very likely to be short of ships as old ships are decommissioned, and new ships slip production schedule, a ship they have started building in 2022, but still haven't finished designing 2024. As sub brief indicates, these ships won't arrive until the 2030s, and in fact Australia's submarines might arrive before the first Constellation is commissioned.
 
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